Byzatine Doux

[qijiang_ok]

I don't feel quite well with Byzantine's doux. In my feeling, Byzantine‘s doux should be quite different from the Western Europe's.

Firstly, the subordinate of doux should be 'strategos', but not 'count', in that period of history.
Secondly, doux should be able to appoint his subordinate quite easily, not causing relation penalty. And once his subordinate dies, doux should appoint a new one, not inherited directly by his family.
Thirdly,doux should have more holding limit. As Manuel I of Komnenos, I have to dispose of my holdings in minor asia before the game start because of my small holding limit. I think this is not historically authentic since Manuel I can hold so many holdings, but I can't.

In my opinon, Byzantine is a centralized country like contemporary China.(OK,I am a Chinese...) It should not be as divided as Western Europe.
Maybe I don't know enough about historical Byzantine?

 

[AndreasPhokas]

you're right but it'd be difficult for PI to make the byzantines historical due to the constraints of the feudal game model. Since leaders of the themes were appointed and not gained by inheriting it that contradicts a huge portion of what the game is based around. What would your dynasty do if you die and your theme is given to another person. Your characters are then stuck sittin in constantinople. Thus the "feudal" byzantines.

Literally all you could play would be the emperor(who should get overthrown more than he does currently) to many stupid HERP DERP LOWER CROWN AUTHORITY wars

 

[Trithemius]

Maybe some modding to give the Byzantines a perk on demesne limit?

 

[cybrxkhan]

The current game model doesn't favor any sort of heavily centralized state. Even in a kingdom or empire with absolute crown authority, the vassals still do their own thing to a good extent.

What the game can simulate is ensuring that the Byzantine Empire's civil wars aren't over lowering crown authority and the like, but rather over claimants. I had hoped that LoR would introduce a way for ambitious Byzantine nobles and generals to seize the imperial throne for themselves, but my hopes were dashed. Hopefully modders (including myself) will be able to find a way to simulate that, but I'm surprised PI didn't introduce it - it wouldn't be that drastic a game change.

 

[Trunting]

My suggestion was, that you lose the Duchy and the Doux title after your dead, but that your family inherits your counties and baronies, which would give you the opportunity to stay as a landholder. And great landholders were, as far as I know, historical in the Byzantine Empire in this time.,

As far as I read it, the Byzantine Empire saw a process of feudalistic innovations in the middleages. Under the Komnenians the Pronoia system was implemented. Land was grated to the nobility. The landowner got the right to tax the land, but had to raise soldiers in wartimes. Also, the land wasn't inheritable till the 13th century.

Due to the fact, that a system, in which you lose all your land after your characters death, would be difficult to use in the current system, I think, the Byzantine nobility should lose only the Duchies fater their dead. Then, the Duchies should be granted to a new owner by the Emperor.

 

[Isaios]

My suggestion was, that you lose the Duchy and the Doux title after your dead, but that your family inherits your counties and baronies, which would give you the opportunity to stay as a landholder. And great landholders were, as far as I know, historical in the Byzantine Empire in this time.

Agreed. And as long as it's ONLY the Ducal tier, there'd be a significant reason to grab a King tier title.

 

[Portal]

Byzantium was a heavily centralised buraucracy focusing on court titles which signified closeness to the Emperor. There were no hereditary titles, perhaps except minor holdings

 

[sergeant113]

The disintegration of the theme system was caused by the appointed strategoi families and clients using judicial and economic means to impoverise small land holders, buying lands and becoming land owners. Those families were so entrenched in their theme, owning so much land that the Emperors had to appoint them to their home theme or faced open revolts. This feudalization of the theme had been going on since before Basil II. By the start of the game, the country has become quite decentralized already, which, more or less, is well-represented by the game system. You can revoke the Doux title (Strategos equivalent) , but having owned 2-3 counties in that Duchy (Theme), they will revolt against their repective new liege and reclaim it.

But what you say about Demesne limit is true. The empire's administrative and bureaucratic system should allow for more holdings limit.

 

[grumphie]

it already does. byzantine lands atart out with higher legalism tech(directly influencing demense limit) than in western europe

 

[Grubnessul]

you're right but it'd be difficult for PI to make the byzantines historical due to the constraints of the feudal game model. Since leaders of the themes were appointed and not gained by inheriting it that contradicts a huge portion of what the game is based around. What would your dynasty do if you die and your theme is given to another person. Your characters are then stuck sittin in constantinople. Thus the "feudal" byzantines.

Literally all you could play would be the emperor(who should get overthrown more than he does currently) to many stupid HERP DERP LOWER CROWN AUTHORITY wars

Playing as the Doux of Trebizond, I've seen quite a few X for Emperor wars.

 

[jordarkelf]

Making greek counts strategos is easy.

count_greek;Strategos;Strategos;Strategos;;Strategos;;;;;;;;;x

 

[unmerged(48470)]

I suggest to read "Medioevo Greco" a great book decribing how, instead, feudal sistem was well estabilished in Byzantium.
Look at Komnenos family, they were lord of vast holdin in where, the Doukas emperor ìs an Equal and not a sovereign.

 

[Kaiserjagen]

The disintegration of the theme system was caused by the appointed strategoi families and clients using judicial and economic means to impoverise small land holders, buying lands and becoming land owners. Those families were so entrenched in their theme, owning so much land that the Emperors had to appoint them to their home theme or faced open revolts. This feudalization of the theme had been going on since before Basil II. By the start of the game, the country has become quite decentralized already, which, more or less, is well-represented by the game system. You can revoke the Doux title (Strategos equivalent) , but having owned 2-3 counties in that Duchy (Theme), they will revolt against their repective new liege and reclaim it.

But what you say about Demesne limit is true. The empire's administrative and bureaucratic system should allow for more holdings limit.

This is more or less correct from what I've read on the Empire in the high middle ages. This started occurring around the late 10th century and started really thriving during the Komnenians. The themes undoing was arguably a result of the themes fully becoming the ultimate administrative unit of the Empire. Themes originally were mostly military divisions of command and not both civil and military as they'd eventually become. When the strategos or doux was eventually given full civil and military reign he naturally would take the best land for himself over time to ensure his family's prominence. This would weaken the power of the imperial bureaucracy over the wider empire and increasingly limit it to Constantinople and the immediate areas. That being said, the process was never really institutionalized in the Western sense until arguably the post-4th crusade era (despots and whatnot) and the military aristocracy did not have the de jure legal/constitutional rights as western fiefdoms did even in the twilight of the Empire.

 

[Federalist girl]

Playing as the Doux of Trebizond, I've seen quite a few X for Emperor wars.

Only for people with valid claims to the throne. You can't just have some guy overthrow the Emperor in a coup, alas.

 

[cybrxkhan]

For those who want to play a vanilla, non-mod game where people not related to the Doukas have claims on the thone, I suggest starting at least 6 years after the 1066 starts (in 1072), maybe even a few years after that. Alexios I Komnenos has a strong claim on the empire starting from 1072 and likewise do a few other characters - so there are other non-dynastic people who can clami the throne, then.

The only drawback - if there is one - is that it's a later start, which I know some people really don't like. But for those like me who could care less when you start, it's good.