Byzantium

[Zelius]

I think it'd be interesting if Byzantium got an event whereby it gained an alliance with Genoa / Venice (though the latter usually rivals) in return for transfer trade power. So it could become the crumbling city propped up by Italians we know and love.

But meh, the 1444 start is perfectly playable, and nobody really wants to see Byzantium survive all that long in AI hands right?

Plus they've had too much attention already. There are plenty of places even in Europe where terrain makes defence much easier, but they're all treated the same anyway.

 

[Scottx105]

OK, I'll give Byzantium Theodosian Walls and Greek Fire since it's more historical. Just as long as you don't mind the following historical changes as well:
- Reduce Constantinople to <10 development
- Remove important center of trade and black sea toll from Constantinople
- Morea should be a vassal or independent
- Athens should start with their independence supported by the Ottomans

Sound good?

I'll agree with reducing Constantinoples development to 10 as it was having finantial troubles, but I would also disagree that Byzantium was bankrupt at the time as even though they did melt all the gold and silver they could find "reducing development and turning it into gold" they had plenty of money to hire mercenary forces and to prep the walls for the siege of 1453. I also disagree with Constantinople losing its trade modifiers as it was still an important center of trade and even as of now Byzantium only earns about 2 ducats from the trade node where as the Ottomans earn about 6 ducats, pair that with Ottomans huge fleet Byzantium already gets barely any cash from Constantinople trade node even with the modifiers. Though to represent the hard times perhaps you could create a temporary event throughout 1444 to 1454 that reduces Byzantine trade power in the Constantinople trade node by like 50% or something. I also agree that Morea should start as a vassal, and I'm not sure about Athens, unless they had some historical rivalry or hatred of Byzantium I don't think it would be right.

I think it'd be interesting if Byzantium got an event whereby it gained an alliance with Genoa / Venice (though the latter usually rivals) in return for transfer trade power. So it could become the crumbling city propped up by Italians we know and love.

But meh, the 1444 start is perfectly playable, and nobody really wants to see Byzantium survive all that long in AI hands right?

Plus they've had too much attention already. There are plenty of places even in Europe where terrain makes defence much easier, but they're all treated the same anyway.

That would be interesting, as Venice and Genoa did supply the most troops and ships to Byzantium, however for their support it would have to come either at a heavy cost of money or transferred trade power for a long period of time, lets say 20-30 years. Or you could flat out refuse and try your own luck.

 

[Angeleyed]

Bro, you have just launched a hell upon us..

If a discussion starts, it won't end so fast. So I will post TL;DR for ya:

Maybe Byzantium was technologically advanced or had some secrets. Maybe. But it was dead since... let's say XIII century. If we would want to represent the real situation of Byzantium in 1444 it would be impossible to play, as it is impossible to heal a corpse. It just wasn't a nation anymore. Fortunately, realism is not an argument.

Well as much as I hate it, you are mostly right in what you say. On the other hand you make some wrong assumptions. Byzantium might be a ghost of its former self, but it still was sth every European nation looked up to. It was the freaking roman emperor and his golden city at the gates of the Silk Road. Realism is not an argument "in the game".

Now to correct you. Byzantium was still a nation and not a corpse. Even the ottoman sultan acknowledged that. However Byzantium was weak, indebted, small and vulnerable. The only thing saving it was Turkish crappy navy and the threat of Venice.

 

[Angeleyed]

The Ottomans offered Constantinople irresistible Turkish delight if they would only open the gates...The rest is history.

Yeah assuming the gates opened as easily as your balcony door... Bro the 2nd holiest place of orthodox Christianity is there. Surrender is not an option.

 

[aitaituo]

OK, I'll give Byzantium Theodosian Walls and Greek Fire since it's more historical. Just as long as you don't mind the following historical changes as well:
- Reduce Constantinople to <10 development
- Remove important center of trade and black sea toll from Constantinople
- Morea should be a vassal or independent
- Athens should start with their independence supported by the Ottomans

Sound good?

You are so unkind to your Basileus, Wiz. It's people like you that destroyed the Roman Empire. I bet you haven't given a proper sacrifice to the Imperial Cult in years.

 

[Noel84]

You are so unkind to your Basileus, Wiz. It's people like you that destroyed the Roman Empire. I bet you haven't given a proper sacrifice to the Imperial Cult in years.

don't worry, the gods shall smite down the heretic.

 

[ruzen]

why people dont shut up about Byzantium for that era It has none importance at all. Its gona fall in one year

 

[Scottx105]

why people dont shut up about Byzantium for that era It has none importance at all. Its gona fall in one year

Quick! Burn the heathen at the stake! But in all seriousness Byzantium was a big deal it does have importance, and it fell 9 years after start date not 1 .

 

[zamieo]

Well, people do seem to forget that the Ottomans still needed at least 50,000 men (some speculate of much bigger numbers, which wouldn't be impossible seeing how many the Ottomans fielded at Varna or even at the Battle of Ankara), 126 ships and 70 cannons to take Constantinople, not to mention that they built two forts to block control ships coming in and out of the Bosphorus Strait. Had the Byzantines received help from the West in terms of ships and later a relief army... Who knows what could've happened.

 

[ChildeR]

I'm not doing any of those things, mind. I just wanted to point out that Byzantium is insanely powerful in 1444 in EU4 compared to their actual level of power in history, so maybe complaining that they don't have enough Special Roman Powers on top of that is a little silly?

I would take "special" over powerful any day, and that goes for all tags. E.g. add a fort_16th in Constantinople but nerf something else to compensate. (Actually, it would probably *be* a nerf early game, since it costs more money.)

Western tech, OTOH, would just make them more boring to play, so that I would oppose.

 

[Zakath]

Western tech, OTOH, would just make them more boring to play, so that I would oppose.

Meh, if you want it you've got western tech by 1550 or so anyway. If you survive the initial start that is.

Kick Ottoman arse, grab Anatolia / Greece / Balkans, then eat Hungary, then take either Vienna or Prague, whichever belongs to the Emperor so usually Vienna. Wait for separatism to go away, click button for Western Focus.

Now you've won the game, good luck blobbing.

 

[raikaria]

And that decaying crap hole was able to hold of an army which outnumbered it 10 to 1 for 6 weeks causing the Ottoman army heavy casualties behind the best fortifications of the medieval and late antiquity period, using Greek fire, gunpowder ect.

Last I checked; most 1444 sieges last well over 6 weeks; armies seigeing take attrition; and Constantinople's garrison probobly is more than 10:1 outnumbered.

 

[AlphaSonic]

Again that stupid thread? If you are going to give flavor to a doomed nation, give it to Granada, they resisted much more time.

 

[Scottx105]

Last I checked; most 1444 sieges last well over 6 weeks; armies seigeing take attrition; and Constantinople's garrison probobly is more than 10:1 outnumbered.

10 to 1 is the generally accepted average of Constantinople situation between us knowing that Byzantium definatly had between 7000-12000 troops and Ottomans had at least 40,000, however 80,000 is more likely considering recent sieges during this time period and estimates go all the way up to 300,000. And yes some nations did last longer, but you cannot rationalize two sieges being the same or one group of defenders holding out better compared to another as the situations regarding each siege were completely different.

 

[knapp86]

Well, if Constantinople should get a level two fort for holding of 50.000-80.000 Ottoman troops in 1453 for six weeks, Belgrade deserves one as well for holding off 30.000-100.000 Ottomans and not falling at all (in 1456).

However, Shkodër in Albania held up 150.000-300.000 Ottomans for months (May to September 1478) and never fell. After September the held againsts 8,000-40,000 Ottomans (the Sultan left) until Venice and the Ottoman Empire made peace in April 1479. So obviously it's actually Albania that deserves a buff.

Edit: Better grammar

 

[zamieo]

Well, if Constantinople should get a level two fort for holding of 50.000-80.000 Ottoman troops in 1453 for six weeks, Belgrade deserves one as well for holding off 30.000-100.000 Ottomans and not falling at all (in 1456).

Well, they only had to last for less than three weeks, because they were relieved by John Hunyadi who defeated the Ottomans in battle.

However, Shkodër in Albania held up 150.000-300.000 Ottomans for months (May to September 1478) and never fell. After September the held againsts 8,000-40,000 Ottomans (the Sultan left) until Venice and the Ottoman Empire made peace in April 1479. So obviously it's actually Albania that deserves a buff.

Edit: Better grammar

I haven't read up on the battle, but the numbers sound highly implausible, although not impossible. Let's ask @Chamboozer shall we?

 

[FieldMedic]

Yeah assuming the gates opened as easily as your balcony door... Bro the 2nd holiest place of orthodox Christianity is there. Surrender is not an option.

Some one took a harmless joke a liiiiitle bit too personally. Sorry to step on your toes but you really should lighten up.

 

[Chimerae]

Great documentary of the siege of Constantinople!

 

[Retrograde]

Granada is cooler than byzantium, and a similar situation - the last remnant of a once great empire. Buff Granada!!! Events for Granada!!! Flavor for Granada!!

 

[Wizzington]

Granada is cooler than byzantium, and a similar situation - the last remnant of a once great empire. Buff Granada!!! Events for Granada!!! Flavor for Granada!!

Albania and East Frisia are my personal favorite countries in EU4, but Granada is cool too.

(I need to get around to making some East Frisian ideas)