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yerm

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That's the beauty of EU4, its meant to be ahistorical after 1444 to allow players to experience history differently. And it does not matter that they failed as 1444 is the official start date and as far as everyone is concerned Byzantium had not yet fallen. You don't see the dev's adding an event that wipes out 75% of Spain's navy around 1588 because it was destroyed in history. Historical factors should only count towards the 1444 start date as that is the start date of the game and date the majority of people start at, after that EU4 has guiding missions and a few events to major things that happened in Europe but ultimately after 1444 the game wants you to forge your own path regardless of what real life history dictates.

You seem to argue that Byzantines should get bonuses based on historical factors and then that historical factors shouldn't count after 1444. If the Byzantines deserve a better fort or a defensive bonus based on historical circumstances, so be it. If their position was actually undermined by the inability to support the defenses and/or the liability of the civilians within the defensive area, causing their net defensive circumstances given the logistics to be no better than most any other location with a starting fort... then they don't get buffed.

This attempt to cherry pick when history is appropriate and when history is to be ignored based entirely on what appears to be best for Byzantines is nonsense. If you want historical accuracy, great, then accept that historical accuracy may be in your (Byzantine) favor, but may not, and be willing to suck it up when it's not. If you want history to only be accurate at 1444 and then branch off, fine, great, but then suck it up when their 1444 position is actually worse than what the game depicts and no buffs are appropriate based on history.
 
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Shaaaq

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You seem to argue that Byzantines should get bonuses based on historical factors and then that historical factors shouldn't count after 1444.

Not quite, he is arguing that historical events that occurred after 1444 (such as a gate left open, a person being wounded at a certain stage) shouldn't be relevant whereas the situation at 1444 should consider as much as historically plausible beforehand.

net defensive circumstances given the logistics to be no better than most any other location with a starting fort
On the contrary; given the scale of the attack I think it is very easy to conclude that Constantinople was extremely well fortified (high net defensive).
The best siege weapons at the time in addition to an army that some people have estimated at 300,000 (most likely lower) to take down a single fort; is there any case in history where such effort has been put into taking one city?
I certainly can't think of any in the time frame.
 

Noel84

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Not quite, he is arguing that historical events that occurred after 1444 (such as a gate left open, a person being wounded at a certain stage) shouldn't be relevant whereas the situation at 1444 should consider as much as historically plausible beforehand.


On the contrary; given the scale of the attack I think it is very easy to conclude that Constantinople was extremely well fortified (high net defensive).
The best siege weapons at the time in addition to an army that some people have estimated at 300,000 (most likely lower) to take down a single fort; is there any case in history where such effort has been put into taking one city?
I certainly can't think of any in the time frame.
Where are you getting 300K? All the sources I've found say >100K
 
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illathid

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Not quite, he is arguing that historical events that occurred after 1444 (such as a gate left open, a person being wounded at a certain stage) shouldn't be relevant whereas the situation at 1444 should consider as much as historically plausible beforehand.

Except those events are being used as evidence of an underlying problem that would've existed in 1444. Specifically, that Byzantine moral was atrocious.
 

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The defensiveness bonus is, obviously, for the location. With the positioning of the city and the golden horn and the ability to defend via the walls (which WERE huge) and everything... it makes it a far more defensible position than almost any.

The location of Constantinople doesn't appear to be anything exceptional, defensively speaking. No more so than any other fortified coastal city. At the very least, it doesn't appear that the terrain hindered the Ottomans at all.

Defensiveness covers a few things though, location included for things like forts in the mountain. But I'd argue it's biggest use is representing the people. I mean, it's not like Ethopia moves a captured fort up on a mountain when they capture a province. Defensiveness is best used for 'transient' things. Events giving or taking defensiveness for various reasons (walls in disrepair for example) or who currently controls a fort for example.

The Theodosian walls, while impressive, wouldn't have remained the high point of defensive structures forever regardless. So either you'd give the defensiveness a timer or just simply represent it as a bastion, which I think would be a better solution for representing the walls. But if you just simply did that, the siege of Constantinople would last years, which isn't very representative of how things played out. Ultimately, EU4 is meant to trend towards historical outcomes, but leaving the possibility of alternatives to arise. Giving Constantinople a bastion without an associated heavy penalty to defensiveness means that you would never see remotely historical outcomes regarding the length of the siege. As does just increasing it's fort defensiveness.

Not quite, he is arguing that historical events that occurred after 1444 (such as a gate left open, a person being wounded at a certain stage) shouldn't be relevant whereas the situation at 1444 should consider as much as historically plausible beforehand.

Like I mentioned earlier, if it was just one of those things that lead to the fall of Constantinople (or if it took all of them), then I would agree that maybe it was just a bit of bad luck and not a problem of the lack of morale. But any one of them spelt the city's fall, and that they all happened pretty much at the same time indicates to me that the city wasn't going to hold too much longer.

On the contrary; given the scale of the attack I think it is very easy to conclude that Constantinople was extremely well fortified (high net defensive).
The best siege weapons at the time in addition to an army that some people have estimated at 300,000 (most likely lower) to take down a single fort; is there any case in history where such effort has been put into taking one city?
I certainly can't think of any in the time frame.

There are some estimates that put it as high as 300K, but most, particularly the more modern analysis, put it considerably lower; in the 50-80K bracket. Which places it as not being very exception for an Ottoman siege even at 160K, given that Svetigrad and Krujë were sieged with an estimated 80K and 100-160K troops respectively.
 
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yerm

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Not quite, he is arguing that historical events that occurred after 1444 (such as a gate left open, a person being wounded at a certain stage) shouldn't be relevant whereas the situation at 1444 should consider as much as historically plausible beforehand.


On the contrary; given the scale of the attack I think it is very easy to conclude that Constantinople was extremely well fortified (high net defensive).
The best siege weapons at the time in addition to an army that some people have estimated at 300,000 (most likely lower) to take down a single fort; is there any case in history where such effort has been put into taking one city?
I certainly can't think of any in the time frame.

Please note, before anything else, that I have spent this thread in favor of a defensiveness bonus to the province!

Historical events in 1453 can shed light of the historical circumstances in 1444, since little changed in the city's defensive capabilities and little changed in the Ottoman's siege capabilities during that decade. There are advantages and disadvantages to a massive wall versus fortified strategic positions or a keep. Constantinople is the token example of massive walls done right, but there are limitations - it means a larger defensive position that needs to be manned, in their case Italians helped the gap. It means a larger internal region that needs to be supported - tens of thousands of civilians inside your fort isn't usually helpful when being sieged. All in all, it seems the walls were quite good in 1453, and deserve to outpace other defensive fortifications elsewhere at the start of the game, often marked with a # comment in the history files.

There are a few approaches - a defensiveness modifier for the province, perhaps having it start with the +25% improved fortifications event already in place. A higher level fort. A defensive bonus in traditions. Improving the province defenses avoids the absurdly awful siege time (unless Ottomans get event cannons or some nonsense) and effectively lasts until you'd get an "improve the capital and its surrounding territory" defensiveness event anyway. Improving the fort level has the advantage of a higher maintenance cost to balance it, which is historically fair, and lasts as a marked advantage specifically until level 2 forts are unlocked, and is also the simplest to implement I'm sure... with the obvious disadvantage of making the siege absurdly long early game. Defense in traditions has the advantage of being Byzantine only but the disadvantage of that is it applies across the map and is permanent.
 

Ameron

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I don't quite agree that Constantinople should get better fortifications or a defensive bonus.
The theodosian walls were a medieval structure, designed to resist medieval sieges. In the game's time frame siege tactics developed and changed dramatically, so it makes little sense to give a bonus to fortifications that are soon going to become vastly outdated. Maybe it would be more logical to increase the chance for Constantinople to get the random event that gives +25% defensiveness.

Anyway, if the Ottomans siege Constantinople it's game over for Byzantium, with or without better fortifications.
I'd rather get more flavour for Byzantium if it survives, and I know that after Purple Phoenix it's a dream not going to come true. Which is sad, I don't like Purple Phoenix and I'm stuck with it.
 
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Yerm, I think you're quite smart and often agree with you tacitly. I've got to disagree with one of your points, while essentially backing everything else.

The location of Constantinople doesn't appear to be anything exceptional, defensively speaking. No more so than any other fortified coastal city. At the very least, it doesn't appear that the terrain hindered the Ottomans at all.
I'm assuming this is the result of a quick google-earth, or something. This is not correct

The geography is extraordinarily exceptional, which is one if the main reasons why Constantinople repulsed the first three Ottoman Sieges, three Rus sieges, the Bulgars, the Arabs, twice, the Persians, and Attila-the-freaking-Hun. Excepting the civil wars, which are hilariously complicated, the city was only ever breached on the two occasions attackers were let in - though the Ottomans were going to make it eventually.

Essentially, Constantinople lies on a tiny peninsula, created by the Golden Horn, that simultaneously renders naval assault preposterously complicated and creates a major choke point for land assault, which was then blocked by the Theodosian walls. It's also on hills, and the terrain is the sort of low grade upward that makes attack harder than it looks.

This is -not- like any fortified coastal city. The only good comps with major cities are Venice and the lagoons, and, like, a theoretical late-medieval NYC

The Theodosian walls, while impressive, wouldn't have remained the high point of defensive structures forever regardless. So either you'd give the defensiveness a timer or just simply represent it as a bastion, which I think would be a better solution for representing the walls. But if you just simply did that, the siege of Constantinople would last years, which isn't very representative of how things played out. Ultimately, EU4 is meant to trend towards historical outcomes, but leaving the possibility of alternatives to arise. Giving Constantinople a bastion without an associated heavy penalty to defensiveness means that you would never see remotely historical outcomes regarding the length of the siege. As does just increasing it's fort defensiveness.

Actually, representing it as a bastion would be kind of justified. This was the fourth Ottoman siege - the process did take years. But I also think a bastion is just too much. A unique +3 building is worth considering. In my opinion, it would be better to make a province modifier or unique "Golden Horn" terrain type, with something like +1 fort level, +5-10% defensiveness, however. (This way, something similar could be applied to Venice, etc.)

The fort level represents the force multiplier the choke point provides, the difficulty to fit enough heavy guns in, and the way-before-it's-time concentric defenses of the Theodosian Walls. (They would've had to change over the years, of course, but they're essentially either a concentric defense to, or a route already provided for, a hypothetical star-fort era structure.)

The defensiveness would represent the insane difficulty of blockading the place properly (it's a currents/local water issue) and the sea-side defensive works, which made starvation a slower process. I'd also need to check if the cisterns were running in 1444, which is why I said 5-10, and not just 5%.

Like I mentioned earlier, if it was just one of those things that lead to the fall of Constantinople (or if it took all of them), then I would agree that maybe it was just a bit of bad luck and not a problem of the lack of morale. But any one of them spelt the city's fall, and that they all happened pretty much at the same time indicates to me that the city wasn't going to hold too much longer.

There are some estimates that put it as high as 300K, but most, particularly the more modern analysis, put it considerably lower; in the 50-80K bracket. Which places it as not being very exception for an Ottoman siege even at 160K, given that Svetigrad and Krujë were sieged with an estimated 80K and 100-160K troops respectively.

The fall had been inevitable since at least 1341-1347 civil war, honestly. Basically, any alt-historical survival of the Basileia Rhomaion implies that turning out at least a bit differently, or the "empire" would start out bankrupt, etc.

There should be no Greek Fire modifier, because that wasn't very reliable or magical, anyway (it was most likely just crude oil, and couldn't be used unless the wind, weather, current, and opposing navy aligned perfectly). The notion that the 15th century imperial rump was about to undergo any Italy-like renaissance are laughable, honestly, and that's why there's an Eastern/Turkish tech group difference, anyway. EUIV deliberately starts after the Crusade of Varna precisely because Rhomania was terminal at that point - Constantinople was in a great location, but that's all the state had going for it, period.
 
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i don't get why the inquisition is bursting through the wall because there's a simple thing to be improved.

Please, the thread's subtitle might as well have been "Nobody Expects..."

The only buff I can support for Byzantium is replacing the 10% Tax Income modifier with Core Creation Cost reduction to make up for the fact that it's a Paradox tradition to remove Byz cores in most major patches. Maybe give them an event dealing with Giustiniani as well.
 
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victimizer

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There's one thing I'd be ready to give Constantinople. A siege force should also need to control the sea as well as land to effect a surrender, because if the garrison controls the Bosporus, they can resupply by sea. This feature should supply at least until more powerful guns become the norm.
 

Wizzington

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OK, I'll give Byzantium Theodosian Walls and Greek Fire since it's more historical. Just as long as you don't mind the following historical changes as well:
- Reduce Constantinople to <10 development
- Remove important center of trade and black sea toll from Constantinople
- Morea should be a vassal or independent
- Athens should start with their independence supported by the Ottomans

Sound good?
 
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Promanco

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OK, I'll give Byzantium Theodosian Walls and Greek Fire since it's more historical. Just as long as you don't mind the following historical changes as well:
- Reduce Constantinople to <10 development
- Remove important center of trade and black sea toll from Constantinople
- Morea should be a vassal or independent
- Athens should start with their independence supported by the Ottomans

Sound good?
Well if you are going to do that you better add an event that gives Constantinople the trade modifiers when is under Ottoman control ;)
 

NetherViking

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OK, I'll give Byzantium Theodosian Walls and Greek Fire since it's more historical. Just as long as you don't mind the following historical changes as well:
- Reduce Constantinople to <10 development
- Remove important center of trade and black sea toll from Constantinople
- Morea should be a vassal or independent
- Athens should start with their independence supported by the Ottomans

Sound good?

Hey, I am okay with the suped up Byz as currently implemented :p It is great you guys actually read the forums by the way.
 

Wizzington

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Well if you are going to do that you better add an event that gives Constantinople the trade modifiers when is under Ottoman control ;)

I'm not doing any of those things, mind. I just wanted to point out that Byzantium is insanely powerful in 1444 in EU4 compared to their actual level of power in history, so maybe complaining that they don't have enough Special Roman Powers on top of that is a little silly?
 
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Promanco

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I'm not doing any of those things, mind. I just wanted to point out that Byzantium is insanely powerful in 1444 in EU4 compared to their actual level of power in history, so maybe complaining that they don't have enough Special Roman Powers on top of that is a little silly?
I knew in the bottom of my heart you were kidding, but I was REALLY hoping you were serious D:
 
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Suzaku

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This is why I tend to mod that Byzantium gets old cores and in addition to Antaolia back after it owns all of Greece + Constantinople. The last thing I add is giving a free Western tech and units once the Themes system is restablished.

I'm also debating on adding a core creation bonus to somewhat counter the North Africa malus as well as moving Turks into same culture group as Byzantium. Though Serbian, Albian, Bulgaria Romanian would be pushing it (and not likely for my personal mod).
OK, I'll give Byzantium Theodosian Walls and Greek Fire since it's more historical. Just as long as you don't mind the following historical changes as well:
- Reduce Constantinople to <10 development
- Remove important center of trade and black sea toll from Constantinople
- Morea should be a vassal or independent
- Athens should start with their independence supported by the Ottomans

Sound good?
Nah need friend bonus from Genoa and Venice (but venice has event drop friendship that happen around 1453 (earlier or later). If Byzantium does well enough it should be able to get the center of trade and sound toll back.
 
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Noel84

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OK, I'll give Byzantium Theodosian Walls and Greek Fire since it's more historical. Just as long as you don't mind the following historical changes as well:
- Reduce Constantinople to <10 development
- Remove important center of trade and black sea toll from Constantinople
- Morea should be a vassal or independent
- Athens should start with their independence supported by the Ottomans

Sound good?
Don't forget it should get a permanent blockade modifier until byz's fleet is stronger than the ottoderps and byz should have to rely on the italians for food
 
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zamieo

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OK, I'll give Byzantium Theodosian Walls and Greek Fire since it's more historical. Just as long as you don't mind the following historical changes as well:
- Reduce Constantinople to <10 development
- Remove important center of trade and black sea toll from Constantinople
- Morea should be a vassal or independent
- Athens should start with their independence supported by the Ottomans

Sound good?

Nah, Constantinople should be an important center of trade, but Byzantium should be transferring 95% of their trade power to Genoa.
 
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