Byzantium

[PanosB3]

Guys say whatever you want but the truth is that Byzantium needs to start with a higher fort level than any other fort and be the best for at least 50 years later, that's the truth now why people trash talk about Byzantium is a mystery to me. The solution regarding the tech isn't making a ''Byzantium tech'' that would be stupid, it needs to be eastern with many many bonuses that reduce that cost (like Muscovy has) because Byzantium could be said to have the same if not better tech level than most western nations up to 1400.But then it started to decline due to a lack of allies and many more problems from inside the state

 

[Kinniken]

Totally agree! That Constantinople fell to the Ottomans is very ahistorical! After all they had a glorious past to protect them from such irrelevant historical factors as vastly superior enemies, population decline, lack of allied support and getting their asses kicked in battle. They could've just thrown books after the infidels and they would've won ffs!

A bit more seriously....

Byzantium doesn't deserve their own tech group or any more special attention, mainly due to the fact that they only existed in about 2 % of the games timeframe. They're a stain on the EU4 blanket. Even the major players of the period, like Spain or England, fx. doesn't get this. And a glorious past, well, if that were an argument for special mechanics, countries like Persia, Ming, The Papal States and probably every other country with a certain claim to a glorious past, which is basically every nation, could be given it.

Pffff, misplaced sarcasm. It should be clear to everyone that in 1444 Byzantium was on the verge of a major renaissance and only terrible luck and mysterious treachery led to their downfall. In EU 4 the normal scenario in most games should be the historically realistic one where the Roman Empire is reborn and dominates Europe. However one problem is that the tech tree needs to extended as technological progress would have been so much faster without the fall of Constantinople, I hope that's part of the next DLC.

 

[Thesian]

Personally I don't rate tolerance very high when you can convert everyone

I rate it especially high in that case, because it's the true faith kind of tolerance, which synergises very well with the aforementioned conversion strength (regardless if Religious ideas are taken for further improvents of both or not).

 

[pharaomatic]

Guys say whatever you want but the truth is that Byzantium needs to start with a higher fort level than any other fort and be the best for at least 50 years later, that's the truth now why people trash talk about Byzantium is a mystery to me. The solution regarding the tech isn't making a ''Byzantium tech'' that would be stupid, it needs to be eastern with many many bonuses that reduce that cost (like Muscovy has) because Byzantium could be said to have the same if not better tech level than most western nations up to 1400.But then it started to decline due to a lack of allies and many more problems from inside the state

The game starts at 1444 and Constantinople fell 1453. It's not trash talk, they're just not that special in my eyes, game-wise. It's in the west things happen in this period, not in the east. Their position is very similar to Granada that, btw., also has a highly advanced past and was a heavily fortified region.

 

[metallicania]

Constantinople should have %75 autonomy, Morea should be a vassal and Anotolian(also Chinese) should start with tech level 4, if we are all in for realism.

 

[Shaaaq]

The game starts at 1444 and Constantinople fell 1453. It's not trash talk, they're just not that special in my eyes, game-wise. It's in the west things happen in this period, not in the east. Their position is very similar to Granada that, btw., also has a highly advanced past and was a heavily fortified region.

Both were also defacto vassal states at some stage.
Granada was abandoned by the islamic states whereas Constantinople at least had defenders from italy and a crusade just before the starting date which would have helped them significantly; it was also entirely possible that in the game Venice's navy would be dispatched in time to break the blockade on Constantinople (which would have allowed the defenders to concentrate on the front walls).

 

[Aries666]

All this talk just further makes me think the game should just start in 1453, then all the Byzantophiles can go and play CK2 where they belong.

 

[MCBC6]

Nothing against Byzantium, but I don't think it warrants it's own tech group. They represent the decay of a nations technological advancements throughout the timeline of the game. Muscovy (or Russia) was slightly behind Western Europeans thus the eastern tech is born. The ottomans were pretty far behind, but to show that they were advanced for a while they get a slightly higher malus than eastern tech groups but are vulnerable to the Janissary disaster event. Indian and Chinese tech groups, while possible deserving to start ok tech 4, were admittedly far behind (and I admire eastern nations). So no, I don't think it deserves its own tech group, because we can't assume where it would be in 400 years.

 

[yerm]

Nothing against Byzantium, but I don't think it warrants it's own tech group. They represent the decay of a nations technological advancements throughout the timeline of the game. Muscovy (or Russia) was slightly behind Western Europeans thus the eastern tech is born. The ottomans were pretty far behind, but to show that they were advanced for a while they get a slightly higher malus than eastern tech groups but are vulnerable to the Janissary disaster event. Indian and Chinese tech groups, while possible deserving to start ok tech 4, were admittedly far behind (and I admire eastern nations). So no, I don't think it deserves its own tech group, because we can't assume where it would be in 400 years.

We certainly CAN assume where they'd be in 400 years had Constantinople never fallen: settling the Milky Way while launching raids into the Andromeda.

 

[Noel84]

We certainly CAN assume where they'd be in 400 years had Constantinople never fallen: settling the Milky Way while launching raids into the Andromeda.

come on, they'd have completed a UC by then: Universe conquest

 

[Scottx105]

Nothing against Byzantium, but I don't think it warrants it's own tech group. They represent the decay of a nations technological advancements throughout the timeline of the game. Muscovy (or Russia) was slightly behind Western Europeans thus the eastern tech is born. The ottomans were pretty far behind, but to show that they were advanced for a while they get a slightly higher malus than eastern tech groups but are vulnerable to the Janissary disaster event. Indian and Chinese tech groups, while possible deserving to start ok tech 4, were admittedly far behind (and I admire eastern nations). So no, I don't think it deserves its own tech group, because we can't assume where it would be in 400 years.

Its easy to imagine what would of happened if Constantinople did not fall and the Ottoman army failed, Hungary and Poland would have most likely used the opportunity to wipe the Ottomans out, whilst Byzantium would continue to fight to gain a heavily favorable deal to restore most of their lands.

 

[Shaaaq]

Its easy to imagine what would of happened if Constantinople did not fall and the Ottoman army failed, Hungary and Poland would have most likely used the opportunity to wipe the Ottomans out, whilst Byzantium would continue to fight to gain a heavily favorable deal to restore most of their lands.

This is doubtful as both Poland and Hungary were still recovering from their failed crusade just prior; as seen when both countries failed to give a significant amount of support to their pretender on the Wallachian throne, Serbia or Moldavia.
What is true however is that if Mehmed II was deposed as a result of failing to take Constantinople the ottoman empire would have gone through their war of succession (between Bayezid II and his brother Cem) earlier which could have given the christians the respite they needed.

 

[barisakbay]

The Theodosin wall, the third wall was 5m thick and had walls 12m high, with a crapton of 20m high archery towers. Then the second layer had a smaller wall (IDK height or thickness), then a ground lower wall a few meters tall. Then a Moat. Even if you somehow did get a breach, you'd have to get through all 3 walls, and then have to fight through a narrow gap to get inside the city. Though the Great Bombard was useless as its rate of fire sucked, could only fire a few rounds every day and the Byzantines simply repaired the wall by the time it was ready to fire again.

And now squatters and drug users inhabit their battered remains in modern Istanbul. Which says a lot about the power of cannons against vertical stone walls that are not reinforced with other materials.

 

[yerm]

Its easy to imagine what would of happened if Constantinople did not fall and the Ottoman army failed, Hungary and Poland would have most likely used the opportunity to wipe the Ottomans out, whilst Byzantium would continue to fight to gain a heavily favorable deal to restore most of their lands.

If Mehmed II had failed to take Constantinople the first time, he most likely would have come back later and taken it the second, or failing that the third, or fourth. You're talking about a man who conquered all over the place and did not give up after setbacks. If he failed and died, the Ottomans certainly would have descended into at least a bit of civil warring given the timing, but the Byzantines were in no position to capitalize on it via expansion and apparently (given their lack of large support against subsequent campaigns across the Balkans) the other Christian nations were in no shape at that time to do much either. Maybe the Byzantine empire survives a while longer, but regaining its status by that point is a fantasy.

Their chance comes before the game start. The game literally starts a day after the crusade fails; their fate after Varna is basically sealed. Successfully installing a pretender afterwards may temporarily stave off aggression and/or give them a few extra cities, but nothing of lasting value.

Now, if somehow miracles do happen and they re-establish a significant and powerful presence with control of the Bosporus and down the Aegian, what then? Are we actually going to suggest that this eastern-situated empire with a different faith and a lingering government structure and a clear competitive rivalry with the growth of either northern Italy's domination of the mediteraean and even more so the Atlantic powers newly established trade with the east... is going to fit into western systems of learning, technology, ideas, progress, etc? Say whatever you want about could have beens and plausible ways to re-establish, and say what you will about their incredible past technologically, but even the most gloriously resurgent Byzantine empire is going to be economically based on middle east trade via Constantinople and at economic odds with Italy, Spain, Portugal, etc. I put them closest to Hungary in terms of what-if potential had they survived; a cavalry-heavy nation with ties to the west sure but big cultural divides.

 

[Melian Erios]

As I recall Wiz said that if he'd give Constantinople a theodosian wall bonus then he'd also make "the city of the world's desire" mission spawn spawn cannon regiments for the ottomans.

Come on Wiz... They weren't real cannons... They were more barrels full of gunpowder with metal stuffed in.

 

[Scottx105]

And now squatters and drug users inhabit their battered remains in modern Istanbul. Which says a lot about the power of cannons against vertical stone walls that are not reinforced with other materials.

Cannons had nothing to do with it, whilst they did not help the Byzantines repaired most of the damage they caused between volleys.

 

[victimizer]

Where are you getting this data from? Most of the numbers I see out there estimate a population at or over 30 k people.

Yeah sure. A decrepit isolated city without any reliable supply lines. If there were tens of thousands living there, they were probably refugees mostly at this point.

People really need to get over their infatuation with this city state.

The OP is right about the Western tech group, but that's only the tip of the iceberg. A proper overhaul should include at least the following:
- Constantinople should start as a size 4 fort (some people would say more but let's not exaggerate)
- Byzantium really should have cores on all the Eastern Roman Empire, with missions for cores on the Western half
- The national traditions and ideas really need an overhaul. I'm thinking something like:
- NTs: Greek Fire: +100% Galley combat ability, Imperial Reach: +5 diplomatic ability, Legacy of Empire: +5 yearly prestige
- NIs:
- Cataphracts: +100% Cavalry combat ability
- SPQR: -5 revolt risk
- Legacy of Plato: -50% idea cost
- Roman conquests: -75% coring cost
- Legions reborn: +150% Infantry combat ability
- Tributary states: +5 diplomatic relations
- Roman concrete: -75% building cost
- Roman discipline: +50% discipline
- Classical Heritage: -50% technology cost
- Garrison towns: +100% colony growth
- Pax Romana: 80% AE reduction
- Imperial Prestige: -75% vassal integration cost
(yes, that's more than eight, but whatever, Byzantium should have more)
- Ambition: Empire Reborn: permanent 100 prestige, 100 legitimacy and +3 stability.
Of course restoring the Roman Empire should switch you to better NIs than those.

Also, Byzantium really should also be the union tag for South Slavic as well, and the restored Empire the union tag for Latin, French, Iberian, and British (I'm being reasonable and not adding German there).

That would be a good start to make Byzantium's starting position a little more realistic, while we wait for a proper DLC.

I think it's really telling about byzaboos that I can't ascertain if this is a troll or not.

Do you people seriously believe that this decrepit city state was some potentially world conquering super-mega-power if only it hadn't been bested by virtually everyone around it?

They were a just another Greek city at this point. They were probably good at fishing and praying.

 

[Scottx105]

Yeah sure. A decrepit isolated city without any reliable supply lines. If there were tens of thousands living there, they were probably refugees mostly at this point.

People really need to get over their infatuation with this city state.

People really need to get over Byzantaphobia.

 

[Oddb@ll]

Yeah sure. A decrepit isolated city without any reliable supply lines. If there were tens of thousands living there, they were probably refugees mostly at this point.

A quick glance at Wikipedia states 50k inhabitants, and no real indication that most were refugees. Do you have another source?

 

[victimizer]

A quick glance at Wikipedia states 50k inhabitants, and no real indication that most were refugees. Do you have another source?

Yes, when?

/nevermind, found the source.