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Scottx105

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Sure I wasn't clear enough. What I meant was that no-one could seriously claim they should have any effect on the game. So the Theodosian walls were strong for medieval walls. Fine. but that's irrelevant in the time period covered by EUIV. So they had guns, fine, but so did all sorts of other nations - including the Ottomans for example, who don't even get Eastern tech. The reason European nations get a tech boost is because no-one in PDox did research. What impact there was from Byzantine refugees came from those fleeing the Fourth Crusade two hundred years earlier (who did have a fair impact on the beginning of the Renaissance). By 1444 knowledge was being brought into Byzantium from Europe (Italy in particular).
Yes because it takes 200 years for people to flee from Greece/Turkey/Balklands to the rest of europe. For them to start causing the Renaissance 200 years later. The fourth crusade did cause refugees to flee to Europe, however it was the fall of Constantinople that revived peoples interests in the old manuscripts brought by the previous refugees (now reinvigorated interest from the new refugees with newer modern manuscripts after the old manuscripts fell into obscurity), this kick started the process which caused the Renaissance in the mid to late 15th century.
 
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Where has Constantinople's Theodosian walls gone?
Considering that in a normal game the only nation that will attack byzantium is the ottoderps and they had the siege weapons necessary to take the city at that time what good would a special modifier in the form of walls do?
At best they would ahistorically lengthen the final siege which is already too long.
 
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I'd be okay with a Byzantine tech group (considering that an Ottoman one exist) which is 100% cost just like western, and with special units that have strong cavalry. That said, it should still be inferior to western by pips in the late game.
This is just cliche and there is no real basis for a Byzantine tech group when they and anyone culturally derived from them ended a few decades into the game. Drawing a parallel between Byzantine and Ottoman is equally flimsy considering the Ottomans went on to create the largest/strongest empire of the period and were culturally distinct, hence they have their own tech group.
 
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This is just cliche and there is no real basis for a Byzantine tech group when they and anyone culturally derived from them ended a few decades into the game. Drawing a parallel between Byzantine and Ottoman is equally flimsy considering the Ottomans went on to create the largest/strongest empire of the period and were culturally distinct, hence they have their own tech group.
That's not really the point, the point is players should be rewarded when they successfully pull of playing difficult nations, and difficult to play nations should also have their perks. Especially ones that make sense and are historical without being too impactful allowing players to forge their own nations after the initial historical setup of 1444.
 
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High thin walls don't do much against cannons big like Spanish wine barrels.
 
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Scottx105

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High thin walls don't do much against cannons big like Spanish wine barrels.
The Theodosin wall, the third wall was 5m thick and had walls 12m high, with a crapton of 20m high archery towers. Then the second layer had a smaller wall (IDK height or thickness), then a ground lower wall a few meters tall. Then a Moat. Even if you somehow did get a breach, you'd have to get through all 3 walls, and then have to fight through a narrow gap to get inside the city. Though the Great Bombard was useless as its rate of fire sucked, could only fire a few rounds every day and the Byzantines simply repaired the wall by the time it was ready to fire again.
 
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That's not really the point, the point is players should be rewarded when they successfully pull of playing difficult nations, and difficult to play nations should also have their perks. Especially ones that make sense and are historical without being too impactful allowing players to forge their own nations after the initial historical setup of 1444.
By that logic then Scotland should get its own gaelic tech group, hell any number of difficult to play nations with far greater historical reasoning (that they actually participated in this period of history) should get their own tech groups units and decisions. By the by Byzantium has already had a dlc created for it despite not actually being a thing in this time period, I would consider that to be more than enough attention.
 
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1. It would probably be a bit odd to give Constantinople a level 2 fort, while a mere level 1 fort is underwhelming. Simply having the province start with a defensiveness bonus I think would work out well; something akin to the 25% defensiveness in a province event that can randomly fire. The tricky part here is to give them something that makes Constantinople the most defensive position in the world at game start, but doesn't last all game and also doesn't become unbalanced when it's AI vs AI and the city is Ottoman by 1460 almost every game. 25% and just the regular ol level 1 fort seems good to me.

2. Byzantine ideas could be better. A galley combat bonus in traditions would probably make everyone happy - even just a small bonus here will do HUGE things for most strats which involve sniping a subset of the Otto's fleet and blocking the straits. In fact, if we're going to throw a buff their way, Galley CA in traditions is probably the best way to do it (over more cores etc).

3. Eastern Tech is fine and appropriate; the problem is that eastern Tech is magically worse than western, not that Byzantines are in that tech group. It allows them to field Eastern units and cavalry ratios, which is totally necessary for the Roman rump state renown for a focus on heavy cavalry. The only issue is obviously the tech malus. Take it up with the devs for designed tech groups with flat and arbitrary penalties - if you think Byz having a tech malus in the 15th century is the most absurd, Ming would like a word with you.

That's not really the point, the point is players should be rewarded when they successfully pull of playing difficult nations, and difficult to play nations should also have their perks. Especially ones that make sense and are historical without being too impactful allowing players to forge their own nations after the initial historical setup of 1444.

What kind of rewards are you looking for? Perhaps a triumph decision for retaking different regions? Free monarch points when you reclaim major cities like Antioch? Hell, let's go all the way, how about we beef up the development of the capital if you're able to reconquer the large core region of Greece and Anatolia, maybe call it the theme system?? The Byzantines have more developer attention and focus than all but THE most fleshed out nations. Very few compare. There isn't a single nation in the game with more events and love than them, that can't easily be justified as a major and influential presence throughout all or most of the period.

Yes because it takes 200 years for people to flee from Greece/Turkey/Balklands to the rest of europe. For them to start causing the Renaissance 200 years later. The fourth crusade did cause refugees to flee to Europe, however it was the fall of Constantinople that revived peoples interests in the old manuscripts brought by the previous refugees (now reinvigorated interest from the new refugees with newer modern manuscripts after the old manuscripts fell into obscurity), this kick started the process which caused the Renaissance in the mid to late 15th century.

The problem here is this notion that only a more advanced people will contribute. Unlike the game and unlike maybe more modern sciences, "tech" at that time was a lot less linear in real life. An influx of now-landless foreign professionals into your society IS going to help spread advances, even if your own society was relatively ahead on the whole. Sorry to Godwin here... I picture it akin to the German scientists which fled to the USA after WWII. Sure, the USA's tech was great, but getting the cream of the scientific crop from a foreign nation still helps you advance further.
 
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The Theodosin wall, the third wall was 5m thick and had walls 12m high, with a crapton of 20m high archery towers. Then the second layer had a smaller wall (IDK height or thickness), then a ground lower wall a few meters tall. Then a Moat. Even if you somehow did get a breach, you'd have to get through all 3 walls, and then have to fight through a narrow gap to get inside the city. Though the Great Bombard was useless as its rate of fire sucked, could only fire a few rounds every day and the Byzantines simply repaired the wall by the time it was ready to fire again.
Could work in theory, but it didn't work. The Theodasian walls could hold against enemies with catapults, ladders and rams, but that was long ago.
Constantinople fell because of the enemy's superior technology.

And Greek fire? Limited range. Once again, effective when naval warfare was mainly about boarding. Now there were cannons.
 
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That's not really the point, the point is players should be rewarded when they successfully pull of playing difficult nations, and difficult to play nations should also have their perks. Especially ones that make sense and are historical without being too impactful allowing players to forge their own nations after the initial historical setup of 1444.

Purple Phoenix DLC already rewards and guides Byzantine reconquest of lands.
 
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Could work in theory, but it didn't work. The Theodasian walls could hold against enemies with catapults, ladders and rams, but that was long ago.
Constantinople fell because of the enemy's superior technology.

And Greek fire? Limited range. Once again, effective when naval warfare was mainly about boarding. Now there were cannons.
No the walls fell because someone left a gate open to the city.
 
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And that decaying crap hole was able to hold of an army which outnumbered it 10 to 1 for 6 weeks

Six weeks? Thats not an argument for making the walls of Constantinople stronger, on the contrary, when you consider the length of other sieges of the period.

And the reason why they were outnumbered 10:1 was that Byzantium WAS a decaying craphole that couldn't afford to field more soldiers.

Byzantium is fine as it is.
 
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Could work in theory, but it didn't work. The Theodasian walls could hold against enemies with catapults, ladders and rams, but that was long ago.
Constantinople fell because of the enemy's superior technology.

And Greek fire? Limited range. Once again, effective when naval warfare was mainly about boarding. Now there were cannons.
You do realize that the cannons that existed back then could only fre around.... 2-3 shots a day? And at that, they were so massive that they would be completely and totally useless on a ship, and even encumber most ships if youu had very many of them? Even later mid-game naval battles focused alot on boarding, cuz destroying a ship was what an idiot o a desperate man did...Do you REALIZE how much work it was to create a large warship back then?
 
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NetherViking

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1) It would be neat if a castle in Constantinople (held by any faction) had a small buff to reflect the extent of the fortifications (maybe 5%/or 10%). I don't know the details of how fort bonuses work but maybe the buff could be nullified if the fort level were raised to 2. The defences were far more formidable against earlier siege techniques though. Game mechanic wise this may be too finicky for the game design but I wouldn't find it offensive.

As an aside: I find it odd starting technology levels don't have siege equipment. I assume people kept using sieging equipment before huge cannons like later trebuchets.

2) I am not 100% certain but Greek fire very likely didn't play a significant role at that stage of history anymore. It was used pre cannon era and also during a time when the Byzantines has access to land with surface petroleum further east. It would be really odd to still include it.

3) I personally think it is reasonable to include Byzantine in the eastern technology group in the current paradigm of game mechanics.

There is a strange over reaction to threads about Byzantine like this around here including labelling people as "byzophiles" which I don't understand personally. For instance it would be silly to not include Byzantine in the game in this era when smaller equally doomed opms are plentiful.
 
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Melian Erios

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Just a few questions, I want the devs or members of the community to answer based on Byzantium.

  1. Where has Constantinople's Theodosian walls gone? They were rumored to be the strongest fortifications ever made and were defiantly the strongest during the fall of Constantinople, there are many records saying that the walls were actively maintained during this period.
  2. Why does Byzantium not get Greek fire modifiers to galleys (combat ability improvement) or increased fort defense? It is true that the plans of the original Greek fire formula was lost but there are reports that the Byzantines did use a substance that resembled Greek fire during the fall of Constantinople (may have been a reserve supply or a substitute).
  3. Why does Byzantium have Eastern Tech? I mean granted during the period around which Constantinople fell Byzantium was suffering in terms of economics, however it still had access to guns and knew about existing technological advances, it just did not have the funding to purchase new military equipment such as cannons. This further does not make sense when European nations get a tech cost reduction when Byzantine refugees arrive in their countries, if Byzantium is technologically inferior due to eastern tech group, why are they getting a reduced tech cost? Surely if Byzantium had scholars, mathematicians ect who are able to make western tech groups techs cheaper then they must at least be ahead in tech or slightly resemble western technology? And the argument that Byzantium had advanced technological secrets which could be shared to western nations through the tech reduction just supports Byzantium having a western tech group.

1) In this era Constantinople's defenses were mothballed and as such weren't maintained as they had been in history
2) IIRC they didn't really use Greek Fire in the medieval ages
3) This is more of a design choice from what I understand, it wouldn't really make sense to have them in Western so having them in Eastern is somewhat of a compromise, Extended Timeline puts them in the "Roman" tech group
 
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yerm

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You do realize that the cannons that existed back then could only fre around.... 2-3 shots a day? And at that, they were so massive that they would be completely and totally useless on a ship, and even encumber most ships if youu had very many of them? Even later mid-game naval battles focused alot on boarding, cuz destroying a ship was what an idiot o a desperate man did...Do you REALIZE how much work it was to create a large warship back then?

Not only that, but even in a major set-piece battle involving capital ships during the cannon-dominated late years of the game, I'd wager most captains would have jumped for joy at an option to fire some kind of napalm-like substance at enemy sails. We're talking about a time when all kinds of nonsense was used to try to target masts and avoid the hull, or grape shot the defenders without significant structural damage, etc. Greek fire would have been immensely useful at any period of naval combat until ships were done being made from wood; its creation died off, not its usefulness.

As for tech group, they do NOT belong in western. Stop looking at the tech costs alone already. It's also absolutely silly to say that they should be in a better tech group because they used to be more advanced - the Muslim world was also advanced, the Indian and Chinese were more advanced, they get even bigger tech penalties. Meanwhile, the Roman empire had LOOOOONG since abandoned the whole heavy infantry dominated composition. The Byzantines need good (not western) cavalry ratios!
 
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Aries666

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You do realize that the cannons that existed back then could only fre around.... 2-3 shots a day? And at that, they were so massive that they would be completely and totally useless on a ship, and even encumber most ships if youu had very many of them? Even later mid-game naval battles focused alot on boarding, cuz destroying a ship was what an idiot o a desperate man did...Do you REALIZE how much work it was to create a large warship back then?
You do realise that when cannon was fired at ships it was more often with the intention to demast the ship to prevent retreat and to kill the crew prior to a boarding action, seldom was it with the intention of sinking the ship, you do realise that don't you?
 

yerm

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You do realise that when cannon was fired at ships it was more often with the intention to demast the ship to prevent retreat and to kill the crew prior to a boarding action, seldom was it with the intention of sinking the ship, you do realise that don't you?

Masts were targeted because they held the sails. A napalm hit to the main sail is going to do everything that metal striking the mast would. Greek fire's usefulness was curbed by outranging the ability to project it, and by opponents using oared galleys.
 

Aries666

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Masts were targeted because they held the sails. A napalm hit to the main sail is going to do everything that metal striking the mast would. Greek fire's usefulness was curbed by outranging the ability to project it, and by opponents using oared galleys.
I wasn't trying to comment on the usefulness or availability of Greek fire simply that cannons were rarely fired with the intention of sinking the target.