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firecage

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Now look. I am a huge Byzantium/Roman lover and would LOVE for them to get more stuff, but the thing is. They are already to powerful compared to their historical self, and they already have an entire DLC devoted to them alone. The only other one being the USA. (And no, Res Republica isn't for the Netherlands alone.)
 
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Ultima_Ratio

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Byzantine refugees don't represent a technological superiority, they just represent researchers and advisors moving west and since technology already is arbitrarily tied to the monarch and court, a tech discount makes perfect sense gameplay-wise.

As far as ERE's technological backwardness goes, it's not very relevant as IF they would've somehow survived and beat the Otto's back, they surely would've been part of the western tech sphere. With many tags the eastern/western tech split is just based on units.
 

Scottx105

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Byzantine refugees don't represent a technological superiority, they just represent researchers and advisors moving west and since technology already is arbitrarily tied to the monarch and court, a tech discount makes perfect sense gameplay-wise.

As far as ERE's technological backwardness goes, it's not very relevant as IF they would've somehow survived and beat the Otto's back, they surely would've been part of the western tech sphere. With many tags the eastern/western tech split is just based on units.
But the point is they were refugees of the Byzantine Empire, now correct me if i'm wrong but if people know something you don't, they are technologically advanced. And the refugees causing a reduced cost in tech easily represents that the Byzantines were advanced in some areas of technology (historically the refugees brought rare Greek manuscripts ect to Europe), even if their economy did not allow them to at the time take greater advantage of that technology, which is why I support the idea of technology groups representing 2 aspects of a nations technology, technology level and unit type, which is why a Byzantine tech group or something similar should be added, giving the Byzantines eastern units early on (more advanced and similar to western units later) whilst giving them western tech costs.
 

Ultima_Ratio

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But the point is they were refugees of the Byzantine Empire, now correct me if i'm wrong but if people know something you don't, they are technologically advanced. And the refugees causing a reduced cost in tech easily represents that the Byzantines were advanced in some areas of technology (historically the refugees brought rare Greek manuscripts ect to Europe), even if their economy did not allow them to at the time take greater advantage of that technology, which is why I support the idea of technology groups representing 2 aspects of a nations technology, technology level and unit type, which is why a Byzantine tech group or something similar should be added, giving the Byzantines eastern units early on (more advanced and similar to western units later) whilst giving them western tech costs.

That's just a biased interpretation. Respective "technological advancement" (whatever that means) is irrelevant as in-game technology is tied to the government. Besides, it has already come up that the developer opinion is that Byzantium was a backwards stinkhole, how on Earth do you tie an in-game (as in, implemented by the same developers) event to technological superiority from that?
 

Gball

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But the point is they were refugees of the Byzantine Empire, now correct me if i'm wrong but if people know something you don't, they are technologically advanced. And the refugees causing a reduced cost in tech easily represents that the Byzantines were advanced in some areas of technology (historically the refugees brought rare Greek manuscripts ect to Europe), even if their economy did not allow them to at the time take greater advantage of that technology, which is why I support the idea of technology groups representing 2 aspects of a nations technology, technology level and unit type, which is why a Byzantine tech group or something similar should be added, giving the Byzantines eastern units early on (more advanced and similar to western units later) whilst giving them western tech costs.

I am just chiming in to say that the idea that refugees from Byzantium brought any major new technologies to the west isn't really a thing amongst historians any more. I am Greek myself, but if we go about making a historical argument, at least we should pick a correct one. In my opinion, this event shouldn't even exist, but whatever.
 

Scottx105

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I am just chiming in to say that the idea that refugees from Byzantium brought any major new technologies to the west isn't really a thing amongst historians any more. I am Greek myself, but if we go about making a historical argument, at least we should pick a correct one. In my opinion, this event shouldn't even exist, but whatever.
I said they brought rare Greek manuscripts, never said in history they brought the secret formula on how to create Greek fire (just making a point), point is the in-game gameplay event makes no sense, either the Greeks are more advanced then they seem to be (give them better tech) or remove the event and keep the Byz tech as it is. Its the equivalent of saying 5+5=15 (Eastern tech + refugees = +5% tech reduction cost... what?, what would make more sense is western tech or Byzantine tech + refugees = +5% tech reduction cost), either that or you remove the tech benefit to western nations as they are already technologically superior and you only give eastern nations the refugee bonus.
 
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metallicania

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But the point is they were refugees of the Byzantine Empire, now correct me if i'm wrong but if people know something you don't, they are technologically advanced. And the refugees causing a reduced cost in tech easily represents that the Byzantines were advanced in some areas of technology (historically the refugees brought rare Greek manuscripts ect to Europe), even if their economy did not allow them to at the time take greater advantage of that technology, which is why I support the idea of technology groups representing 2 aspects of a nations technology, technology level and unit type, which is why a Byzantine tech group or something similar should be added, giving the Byzantines eastern units early on (more advanced and similar to western units later) whilst giving them western tech costs.
Moorish refugees give Ottomans reduced tech cost. Why isn't Granada Anatolian tech? Cause it's not an Anatolian nation lol (resembles anything?)

Or we might just create bunch of new tech groups based on country names. Why not give everyone their own tech as well, 'cause 3 province minors are apparently super mega important. I suggest:
Ulm tech (starts at tech 30)
Ryuku tech (instant WC)
Moorish tech
...
 
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GeneralPetrov

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Significant enough to warrant a 12 page discussion.
Discussion does not equal importance. The number of pages something has really isn't a good way of measuring how important something is, it just means the guys in said thread are consistent/stubborn. As far as I can tell, it's just been 12 pages of "buff byzantium!" "no" "yes" "no" "yes" "developer no" "yes" "NO".

I mean, I find Byzantium just as interesting as the next guy, but from a gameplay point of view, there's no point in giving a ton of mechanics and buffs for a nation that is doomed from the very start to total annihilation.
 
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Equilibrius

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When i initially argued for Byzantium, i didn't want it to spin into exactly this. a dozen pages about buffing Byzantium without backing it up with some gameplay argumentation.

What i'd like to see is basically nothing more than a little flavor tech group for fun that suits what is literally the Roman Empire and founder of the western tech group. Just so that the scholar event makes a little sense.

If Byzantium does not desperately ally or depend heavily upon european powers, it should be violently exterminated by the Ottomans. As for it's strength, both Byzantium (though Theme decision) and Ottomans (Through conquest) have had the events to ''rebuild'' Constantinople. I always thought that was the way the city was restored from poverty.

In addition to being vulnerable to immediate conquest, Byzantium should always be weaker than western nations in the late game by unit pips, probably at an eastern level.

For the Byzantine players, i want to preserve the immense difficulty of this nation while adding this little quirk. Otherwise the nation should, especially when AI, be destroyed very swiftly in all games, there is absolutely no way Byzantium would've survived without the player-level emergency diplomatic miracle.

The furthest other stretch i can think of would probably be cores on Crete and Cyprus, otherwise i don't see what else there is to do.

Is this not satisfactory to all parties? I didn't really think all these pages were necessary. Consider this: If Byzantium has a unique tech group, it will die just as it did before. If it's being played by a human, then it was meant to survive anyways, and i honestly think Byzantium should be incredibly difficult to play as a whole.

Is anyone opposed?
 
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talilu

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If not Byzantium, Granada really deserves to be Western Tech and has done /probably/ more help to Reinnasiance by giving Spaniards some valuable anicent translated texts and huge libraries.
 
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GeneralPetrov

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When i initially argued for Byzantium, i didn't want it to spin into exactly this. a dozen pages about buffing Byzantium without backing it up with some gameplay argumentation.

What i'd like to see is basically nothing more than a little flavor tech group for fun that suits what is literally the Roman Empire and founder of the western tech group. Just so that the scholar event makes a little sense.

If Byzantium does not desperately ally or depend heavily upon european powers, it should be violently exterminated by the Ottomans. As for it's strength, both Byzantium (though Theme decision) and Ottomans (Through conquest) have had the events to ''rebuild'' Constantinople. I always thought that was the way the city was restored from poverty.

In addition to being vulnerable to immediate conquest, Byzantium should always be weaker than western nations in the late game by unit pips, probably at an eastern level.

For the Byzantine players, i want to preserve the immense difficulty of this nation while adding this little quirk. Otherwise the nation should, especially when AI, be destroyed very swiftly in all games, there is absolutely no way Byzantium would've survived without the player-level emergency diplomatic miracle.

The furthest other stretch i can think of would probably be cores on Crete and Cyprus, otherwise i don't see what else there is to do.

Is this not satisfactory to all parties? I didn't really think all these pages were necessary. Consider this: If Byzantium has a unique tech group, it will die just as it did before. If it's being played by a human, then it was meant to survive anyways, and i honestly think Byzantium should be incredibly difficult to play as a whole.

Is anyone opposed?
See, I'm not in opposition to the idea that you've presented there (although one could argue that Byzantium is powerful enough as it is), it's just that as I've said before: of all the issues that need to be addressed, this should be very low down on the list.
 

Nikolaj-11

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Discussion does not equal importance. The number of pages something has really isn't a good way of measuring how important something is, it just means the guys in said thread are consistent/stubborn. As far as I can tell, it's just been 12 pages of "buff byzantium!" "no" "yes" "no" "yes" "developer no" "yes" "NO".

I mean, I find Byzantium just as interesting as the next guy, but from a gameplay point of view, there's no point in giving a ton of mechanics and buffs for a nation that is doomed from the very start to total annihilation.
Then look at the number of users, easy.
 

mudcrabmerchant

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And that decaying crap hole was able to hold of an army which outnumbered it 10 to 1 for 6 weeks causing the Ottoman army heavy casualties behind the best fortifications of the medieval and late antiquity period, using Greek fire, gunpowder ect.

The thread has moved on from here, but I feel the need to respond to this;

6 weeks isn't particularly noteworthy for a siege, even against the Ottomans.
 
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ImperatorLJ

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Honestly, I wish Byzantium would get a fantasy DLC based around it. It'll be about the glorious reemergence of the empire, its eventual world domination, will have new unique mechanics based around a senate and emperor, and neo legions.

I can hear the fury of Wiz from here.
 

Nikolaj-11

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Honestly, I wish Byzantium would get a fantasy DLC based around it. It'll be about the glorious reemergence of the empire, its eventual world domination, will have new unique mechanics based around a senate and emperor, and neo legions.

I can hear the fury of Wiz from here.
Resulting in a PU with all remaining Orthodox nations once you restore the empire uniting all in the true faith? Glorious!
 
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Scottx105

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The thread has moved on from here, but I feel the need to respond to this;

6 weeks isn't particularly noteworthy for a siege, even against the Ottomans.
Again the situation for every siege is variable where some siege defenders are down right unlucky or are lucky, in other cases it has to do with defender numbers to siege front and internal/external factors. Basing a siege purely on the amount of time it took for that siege to end successfully or unsuccessfully is only a small slice of an otherwise huge pie.
However the fortifications of Constantinople we're practically the best in Europe at the time and should be equally represented in game as they have partly been in previous patch versions of EU4 by being represented as a star fort.
 
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