Byzantium

[Zakath]

I don't get the wish to buff the Byzantines. The only two things I'd like, other than an earlier bookmark where the Byzantines are less doomed, is to make them western and give them a few more cores. Sure they'd fallen upon hard times, but the point about byzantine refugees bringing buffs to christendom does have it's merits. Similarly it could be argued that Granada should similarly be western, since it offers great benefits to the country accepting their refugees, but neither really matters.

In the hands of a player, unless you get wiped out in the first decade or two, you will thrive and you will become western if you want to.

 

[Chamboozer]

I haven't read up on the battle, but the numbers sound highly implausible, although not impossible. Let's ask @Chamboozer shall we?

You called?

However, Shkodër in Albania held up 150.000-300.000 Ottomans for months (May to September 1478) and never fell. After September the held againsts 8,000-40,000 Ottomans (the Sultan left) until Venice and the Ottoman Empire made peace in April 1479. So obviously it's actually Albania that deserves a buff.

Huge figures like that come from unreliable narrative accounts, the whole of the Ottoman Army (of which only a portion would be mobilized for any given campaign, say 60-70%) was approximately 140,000 men, going by the timariot figures for Rumelia and Anatolia in 1527 given by Rhoads Murphey in Ottoman Warfare 1500-1700 plus his number of ~50,000 irregulars and ~15,000 kapıkulu. So that gives us a tentative 80-110k men for the typical size of the Ottoman army in the later fifteenth and early sixteenth centuries.

As for Albania getting a buff, I think that the game's inability to represent the Albanians' staunch defense against the Ottomans has more to do with flaws in the combat system (and the general weakness of small countries) rather than anything wrong with Albania in particular.

 

[gwachnitz]

It really just sounds like you want special powers for your pet nation, honestly. The game would not be any more or less historical for adding it, so make some gameplay arguments instead.

I would like to point out that Greek fire might be fun if designed properly and something with a unique gameplay flavor .

 

[Biggie Smalls]

Eastern Cav already causes great grief to AI armies, plus the missions and claims it gets are almost English tier. If Byzantium was exactly the same except they had an army that could take on the Ottomans without allies no one would complain about them being weak, but Byzantium would just become England of the Balkans.

 

[Aries666]

Eastern Cav already causes great grief to AI armies, plus the missions and claims it gets are almost English tier. If Byzantium was exactly the same except they had an army that could take on the Ottomans without allies no one would complain about them being weak, but Byzantium would just become England of the Balkans.

That's not a very good analogy seeing as England is one of the most consistently under-performing nations in the game. Byz can't under-perform because they should and do get wiped out.

 

[PhroX]

I don't get the wish to buff the Byzantines. The only two things I'd like, other than an earlier bookmark where the Byzantines are less doomed, is to make them western and give them a few more cores. Sure they'd fallen upon hard times, but the point about byzantine refugees bringing buffs to christendom does have it's merits. Similarly it could be argued that Granada should similarly be western, since it offers great benefits to the country accepting their refugees, but neither really matters.

In the hands of a player, unless you get wiped out in the first decade or two, you will thrive and you will become western if you want to.

Even if the refugee thing were true, they still wouldn't deserve to be western. The tech a nation has in 1444, or indeed the science they'd done in the past, has little to do with their tech group. Else Ming would have the best tech rate in the game. Tech group is based solely on location. Based on that, Byzantium is either Eastern or Ottoman, and they've gotten the better of the two, so consider yourself lucky.

 

[Gball]

OK, I'll give Byzantium Theodosian Walls and Greek Fire since it's more historical. Just as long as you don't mind the following historical changes as well:
- Reduce Constantinople to <10 development
- Remove important center of trade and black sea toll from Constantinople
- Morea should be a vassal or independent
- Athens should start with their independence supported by the Ottomans

Sound good?

All except the center of trade sound good, actually . Black sea tolls were a hugely important factor. Byzantium, though, couldn't really do it because it didn't really control the tolls any more due to their failing strength. EU3 represented this with a modifier (which I think is a good idea).

Honestly? if you add the things OP asked and those you said (minus the toll for the above reasons, but maybe as a modifier) I would be perfectly happy with it and would make for a very interesting byzantium start.

 

[zamieo]

You called?



Huge figures like that come from unreliable narrative accounts, the whole of the Ottoman Army (of which only a portion would be mobilized for any given campaign, say 60-70%) was approximately 140,000 men, going by the timariot figures for Rumelia and Anatolia in 1527 given by Rhoads Murphey in Ottoman Warfare 1500-1700 plus his number of ~50,000 irregulars and ~15,000 kapıkulu. So that gives us a tentative 80-110k men for the typical size of the Ottoman army in the later fifteenth and early sixteenth centuries.

As for Albania getting a buff, I think that the game's inability to represent the Albanians' staunch defense against the Ottomans has more to do with flaws in the combat system (and the general weakness of small countries) rather than anything wrong with Albania in particular.

A brilliantly informative post, as always!

 

[Zakath]

Even if the refugee thing were true, they still wouldn't deserve to be western. The tech a nation has in 1444, or indeed the science they'd done in the past, has little to do with their tech group. Else Ming would have the best tech rate in the game. Tech group is based solely on location. Based on that, Byzantium is either Eastern or Ottoman, and they've gotten the better of the two, so consider yourself lucky.

That's just a silly argument. Tech group is determined by the relative development of the country, not arbitrary areas, and general interaction with other nations. Sure, Byzantium is in the middle of Eastern and Anatolian tech countries, but it was also a country with a lot of contact with the west. Even in the weakened state the Byzantine empire found itself in the 1450's there's a reason the Genoese and Venetians were willing to aid them, the port was an important trade port for trade between Caffa and Europe and it was important for the silk road trade.

As I said though, it's not important. As an AI country it almost always dies, unless the player for some reason intervenes or it rises from revolts/is released, and as the player westernizing off Vienna or Prague is rather easy. Heck, you can even grab Danzig if you want to avoid the HRE for some reason.

It is one of my favourite countries though, so more flavour events and missions would be quite welcome. It does, however, already have quite a few of those from the Purple Phoenix DLC so I'm not expecting more any time soon.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

I was under the impression it was the Venetians that provided transport for the Turks, despite making the commitment to support the Byzantines? I may be mistaken however. Regardless, Byzantium starting with a fleet bonus (on top of a fairly large fleet to start with) seems fairly anachronistic. Maybe later in the idea tree, suggesting a surviving empire to rebuild its fleet and dominate the Mediterranean again, but to start? I wouldn't think it appropriate.

Nope the Venetians were worried about the growth of the Turkish in Anatolia, before they crossed over, it was this worry that is part of the reason the Genoans ferried them over, partly for profit, partly out of spite. There was no real need for the Venetians to provide transport, they had won the trade wars and had a basic monopoly of trade throughout the mediterranean.

 

[zsImmortal]

Nope the Venetians were worried about the growth of the Turkish in Anatolia, before they crossed over, it was this worry that is part of the reason the Genoans ferried them over, partly for profit, partly out of spite. There was no real need for the Venetians to provide transport, they had won the trade wars and had a basic monopoly of trade throughout the mediterranean.

Yes, you are indeed correct after verification. At the cost of a ducat a head no less.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

Yes, you are indeed correct after verification. At the cost of a ducat a head no less.

They probably overcharged horrificly, for something they would have done for a meagre sum, they wouldnt use the ducat though, they would demand it paid in genovino, gold or silver, they wouldnt be having any of that (superior) Venetian currency near them.

 

[zsImmortal]

They probably overcharged horrificly, for something they would have done for a meagre sum, they wouldnt use the ducat though, they would demand it paid in genovino, gold or silver, they wouldnt be having any of that (superior) Venetian currency near them.

Well it is written to be 'a ducat a head' in 1453.

 

[RobRoy3]

It was mentioned that Trebizond survived longer thanks to inter-faith royal marriages, an option currently denied by the game.

Why not add a new idea/tradition mechanic that permits inter-faith royal marriages? Only one party would need this modifier for the option to be available (though if you wanted you could make it so that only the nation with the modifier can propose the marriage).

This may help Trebizond a little but is mostly unimportant for that reason. However, this mechanic could then be made available in the Nation Designer, permitting custom nations to make use of this with all sorts of faiths & starts around the world. Since Custom Nations are the most popular nation start, it would reach a large portion of your audience as a new option to play with.

Neat idea. Bit underpowered, perhaps, but would represent some much needed flavor for Trebizond and a few other nations.

BTW, anyone arguing to buff the hapless, underpopulated city-state would really be on better historical footing arguing to buff Morea or Trebizond. These were much more akin to actual nations, in 1444, that was the city of Constantinople.

 

[PhroX]

That's just a silly argument. Tech group is determined by the relative development of the country, not arbitrary areas, and general interaction with other nations. Sure, Byzantium is in the middle of Eastern and Anatolian tech countries, but it was also a country with a lot of contact with the west. Even in the weakened state the Byzantine empire found itself in the 1450's there's a reason the Genoese and Venetians were willing to aid them, the port was an important trade port for trade between Caffa and Europe and it was important for the silk road trade.

No it isn't a silly argument. Poland and Hungary had huge amounts of interaction with the West, yet they're in the Eastern tech group. Why? because they are in Eastern Europe. It's as simple as that.

Now, certainly I don't think the way tech groups work is a particularly good system, but that means the entire system should be overhauled, not that Byzantium should get special treatment because they are a "super unique special snowflake of a nation".

 

[ruzen]

Byzantium... Oh My Days ... and forum people....

O' Paradox please make a goddamn Byzantium Action Game where they slice the Ottoman Dynasty in half and blast the Alien creatures as they are the protectors of the universe by GODS WILL. Maybe than, these people could be satisfied.

 

[Scottx105]

No it isn't a silly argument. Poland and Hungary had huge amounts of interaction with the West, yet they're in the Eastern tech group. Why? because they are in Eastern Europe. It's as simple as that.

Now, certainly I don't think the way tech groups work is a particularly good system, but that means the entire system should be overhauled, not that Byzantium should get special treatment because they are a "super unique special snowflake of a nation".

Define Eastern Europe, from all the maps I've seen that show Eastern Europe, then the Teutonic Order and Livonian Order should also be eastern tech as the dividing line is from the east of Germany down to Croatia and east of that is Eastern Europe, however Byzantium was not always in Eastern Europe, oh and Knights of Rhodes should also get Eastern tech then as that's part of Asia Minor.

It really just sounds like you want special powers for your pet nation, honestly. The game would not be any more or less historical for adding it, so make some gameplay arguments instead.

Ok, how about because Byzantium should get the Theodosin walls due to the fact in previous patches Constantinople had a level 3 star Fort, and thanks to the recent DLC/Patch that introduced forts it essentially was reduced to a castle. And nowhere did I read any patch notes of Byzantium being deliberately nerfed, so either it was left out of the patch notes or it was simply forgotten that Byzantium had a high fort level on Constantinople. (Only a few countries had level 3 forts back then, and only 2 had level 4 forts and at no time was this considered game breaking or unfair)

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

Well it is written to be 'a ducat a head' in 1453.

I saw that somewhere too, I thought it was a bit funny, sure the ducat was the international reserve currency much the same as the USD is now but I reckon thats just a simplification, they would likely have taken anything to the value of. Thats still a rediculously high price though, Ottoman army must have been about 40,000 at the time + you have a selection of the camp following. so say 60,000 people, you could buy a large stretch of land with a city in it for that kind of money and I thought the British Rail system was expensive.

 

[Zakath]

No it isn't a silly argument. Poland and Hungary had huge amounts of interaction with the West, yet they're in the Eastern tech group. Why? because they are in Eastern Europe. It's as simple as that.

Now, certainly I don't think the way tech groups work is a particularly good system, but that means the entire system should be overhauled, not that Byzantium should get special treatment because they are a "super unique special snowflake of a nation".

So Eastern Africa is in India then, seeing as the coast South of the Ethiopia area is in the Indian tech group? The Livonian Order and Teutons are in Western Europe? Indonesia and Japan are in China?

Geography certainly plays a role, but it's all about the relative level of development and contact. Keep in mind that the tech group also determines sharing maps of the world, and I do believe the reduced tech cost for teching up (-5% or more) is determined by the technological level of your tech group.

 

[PanosB3]

I agree with buffing certain things about Byzantium and nerfing other things like development but what about an event that is: 1) give x% of trade power to venice/genoa node in exchange for gaining x galleys or alliance with venice or genoa or 2) choice ''we don't need outside help!'' gain 1 stability, I would like to see some kind of an event as this one