Byzantium

[Scottx105]

Just a few questions, I want the devs or members of the community to answer based on Byzantium.

1. Where has Constantinople's Theodosian walls gone? They were rumored to be the strongest fortifications ever made and were defiantly the strongest during the fall of Constantinople, there are many records saying that the walls were actively maintained during this period.
2. Why does Byzantium not get Greek fire modifiers to galleys (combat ability improvement) or increased fort defense? It is true that the plans of the original Greek fire formula was lost but there are reports that the Byzantines did use a substance that resembled Greek fire during the fall of Constantinople (may have been a reserve supply or a substitute).
3. Why does Byzantium have Eastern Tech? I mean granted during the period around which Constantinople fell Byzantium was suffering in terms of economics, however it still had access to guns and knew about existing technological advances, it just did not have the funding to purchase new military equipment such as cannons. This further does not make sense when European nations get a tech cost reduction when Byzantine refugees arrive in their countries, if Byzantium is technologically inferior due to eastern tech group, why are they getting a reduced tech cost? Surely if Byzantium had scholars, mathematicians ect who are able to make western tech groups techs cheaper then they must at least be ahead in tech or slightly resemble western technology? And the argument that Byzantium had advanced technological secrets which could be shared to western nations through the tech reduction just supports Byzantium having a western tech group.

 

[SknerusMck]

Bro, you have just launched a hell upon us..

If a discussion starts, it won't end so fast. So I will post TL;DR for ya:

Maybe Byzantium was technologically advanced or had some secrets. Maybe. But it was dead since... let's say XIII century. If we would want to represent the real situation of Byzantium in 1444 it would be impossible to play, as it is impossible to heal a corpse. It just wasn't a nation anymore. Fortunately, realism is not an argument.

 

[Scottx105]

Bro, you have just launched a hell upon us..

*Removes shades* Let it come! For I would see the glory of Gondo..Byzantium restored!

 

[FieldMedic]

The Ottomans offered Constantinople irresistible Turkish delight if they would only open the gates...The rest is history.

 

[Equilibrius]

I'd be okay with a Byzantine tech group (considering that an Ottoman one exist) which is 100% cost just like western, and with special units that have strong cavalry. That said, it should still be inferior to western by pips in the late game.

 

[Scottx105]

I'd be okay with a Byzantine tech group (considering that an Ottoman one exist) which is 100% cost just like western, and with special units that have strong cavalry. That said, it should still be inferior to western by pips in the late game.

I agree with that, the Byzantine cataphracts were deadly (also special unit in CK2), Byzantine galleys should get a 10-20% combat modifier for Greek fire, or at least the fact that their navy has existed for 1000 years protecting Constantinople.

 

[PhroX]

By the time EUIV starts, Byzantium was a decaying craphole. Nothing more. It already gets far far too much special treatment.

 

[Equilibrius]

By the time EUIV starts, Byzantium was a decaying craphole. Nothing more. It already gets far far too much special treatment.

Realism is not a valid argument. (Who did i just quote?)

As far as i know this game is about alternate history.

 

[Scottx105]

By the time EUIV starts, Byzantium was a decaying craphole. Nothing more. It already gets far far too much special treatment.

And that decaying crap hole was able to hold of an army which outnumbered it 10 to 1 for 6 weeks causing the Ottoman army heavy casualties behind the best fortifications of the medieval and late antiquity period, using Greek fire, gunpowder ect.

 

[PhroX]

Then for the sake of simplicity, lets have the game start with an alternative history where the pathetic remnants of Byzantium were annexed in 1443 instead of a decade later

 

[Boodas]

Perhaps if Byzantium survived and began to resurge (most likely under a human player) Events and Decision could trigger allowing Byzantium to move out of eastern and into its own tech equivalent to western but with its own units.

 

[Equilibrius]

Then for the sake of simplicity, lets have the game start with an alternative history where the pathetic remnants of Byzantium were annexed in 1443 instead of a decade later

To be fair, flamebaiting visibly in front of everyone only serves to strengthen our position.

Unless you're a Byzantophile double-agent, in which case, well played.

 

[PhroX]

To be fair, the entire topic is a parody, so I might as well just troll it. No-one could seriously make those claims about Byzantium in 1444.

 

[Equilibrius]

To be fair, the entire topic is a parody, so I might as well just troll it. No-one could seriously make those claims about Byzantium in 1444.

That it can have it's own tech group, survival or not? That does honestly sound rather simple, i don't get why the inquisition is bursting through the wall because there's a simple thing to be improved.

 

[PhroX]

Unless you want to give every nation in the world their own tech group, there's no reason what so ever to give Byzantium one. Hell, they're lucky to get Eastern - we have an example of what an empire ruled from Constantinple did in the EUIV time period, and they get a worse tech group than that (despite being every bit as advanced as Byzantium was at the game start).

 

[Scottx105]

To be fair, the entire topic is a parody, so I might as well just troll it. No-one could seriously make those claims about Byzantium in 1444.

People who lived during the time period who recorded this stuff could make claims. Especially since we know for a fact that the Theodosin walls were well maintained during the siege of Constantinople, and that the Byzantine defenders did cause heavy casualties to the Ottoman army. So that's easily point 1 maybe even point 2 proven sufficiently, point 3 is proven, Byzantine defenders did have guns and crossbows at the time just like most other European nations, not the most advanced stuff however due to its economy yes my point (hehe) on point 3 simply explains itself well enough.

Unless you want to give every nation in the world their own tech group, there's no reason what so ever to give Byzantium one. Hell, they're lucky to get Eastern - we have an example of what an empire ruled from Constantinple did in the EUIV time period, and they get a worse tech group than that (despite being every bit as advanced as Byzantium was at the game start).

Byzantium isnt a generic western nation that formed from smaller states after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, most countries in Europe that we commonly associate with EU4's start time formed around 800AD-1200AD. Byzantium existed since around 300-500AD (pulling this off the top of my head). So I think it deserves a little special treatment.

 

[Equilibrius]

Unless you want to give every nation in the world their own tech group, there's no reason what so ever to give Byzantium one. Hell, they're lucky to get Eastern - we have an example of what an empire ruled from Constantinple did in the EUIV time period, and they get a worse tech group than that (despite being every bit as advanced as Byzantium was at the game start).

There's a unique factor in play that you've forgotten, the Byzantine scholar event that fires everywhere after constantinople falls. How does that make sense without a proper corresponding tech group?

 

[PhroX]

There's a unique factor in play that you've forgotten, the Byzantine scholar event that fires everywhere after constantinople falls. How does that make sense without a proper corresponding tech group?

It doesn't make sense full stop. The Byzantine refugees that fueled the Renaissance left the city two centuries earlier.

 

[Equilibrius]

It doesn't make sense full stop. The Byzantine refugees that fueled the Renaissance left the city two centuries earlier.

No. That would be the escapees from the 4th crusade that went on to found the Epirote, Trebizondian, and Nicaean states, the latter of which managed to retake the city.

 

[PhroX]

People who lived during the time period who recorded this stuff could make claims. Especially since we know for a fact that the Theodosin walls were well maintained during the siege of Constantinople, and that the Byzantine defenders did cause heavy casualties to the Ottoman army. So that's easily point 1 maybe even point 2 proven sufficiently, point 3 is proven, Byzantine defenders did have guns and crossbows at the time just like most other European nations, not the most advanced stuff however due to its economy yes my point (hehe) on point 3 simply explains itself well enough.

Sure I wasn't clear enough. What I meant was that no-one could seriously claim they should have any effect on the game. So the Theodosian walls were strong for medieval walls. Fine. but that's irrelevant in the time period covered by EUIV. So they had guns, fine, but so did all sorts of other nations - including the Ottomans for example, who don't even get Eastern tech. The reason European nations get a tech boost is because no-one in PDox did research. What impact there was from Byzantine refugees came from those fleeing the Fourth Crusade two hundred years earlier (who did have a fair impact on the beginning of the Renaissance). By 1444 knowledge was being brought into Byzantium from Europe (Italy in particular).

Byzantium isnt a generic western nation that formed from smaller states after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, most countries in Europe that we commonly associate with EU4's start time formed around 800AD-1200AD. Byzantium existed since around 300-500AD (pulling this off the top of my head). So I think it deserves a little special treatment.

It's already got a butt-ton of special treatment. And what it was is irrelevant. By the time EUIV starts, its an insignificant nation about to fall to the Ottoman conquest. It had a little prestige left, but that was it.