Byzantium: won the first war, but now what?

[sekelsenmat]

Hi playing as Byzantium I was able to attack them with Albania while they attacked Candar and the other turkish minor.

It is an ironman run (was hoping for the achievement), so my strategy to win was to beat their navy and control the streits, since their troops are God-level unbeatable. It worked fine, I destroyed like 10 ottoman galleys or something because their navy was divided due to fighting Candar.

I was hoping that their first loss would result in weakening them somewhat. I don't see any effect at all.

Now many years passed and they declared on Genoa. Genoa can carpet siege the whole Balkans.

Ottos allied Aq Qujulu (or whatever the actual name is), and some other small muslims. I allied Austria, Wallachia, Albania.

But, but, but, the ottos apparently have an endless source of gold because I barely have any money (lost plenty fighting a stupid war when Albania declared on Serbia, should have dropped them as allies instead), but they not only rebuilt their navy.... they have like 3 heavies and 12 galleys and 10 transports!!!

My naval limit is 18 and I now have maybe 6 transports, 2 lights, 6 galleys....

What to do? Declare on them and hope Austria will hold off the hordes? Take loans to build heavy ships? Or to build galleys? Pass the chance and wait until they declare their next war (probably will be on me)?

And should I take the first idea? I am seriously considering Naval, because I can't win any land battles anyway....

At this point maybe I should go back to the save just after defeating the ottomans, not help Albania in the stupid war and save money for ships.... but what if I do that and Austria refuses to ally me (not sure why they magically wanted to ally suddenly at a certain point) or Ottos come for me instead of Genoa?

 

[RedArmy]

You waited a lot of time and now ottos are strong. It is not impossible to beat them since Austria is your ally. Just hope France doesn’t attack them while they are at war with ottos.

If you savescum I would try to attack them earlier. Delete unnecessary forts like Gelibolu. Austria is ottos’ rival, that´s why they wanted to ally you. What about your own rivals? If Genoa is not your rival you should try to ally them, you may even ally them after their war against ottos began. You would then be dragged into this defensive war. Carpet siege the balkans and make a separate peace to take coasts. You may also ally turkish minors, same idea, be dragged into defensive war and take lands in separate peace. Once ottos have a common frontier with mamluks, it is a good idea to ally them too. Don’t be afraid of having too many allies. But don’t fight wars you don’t want to fight.

For naval superiority you may also consider allying the knights or cyprus. You can also attack epirus and vassalize them to get stronger at sea. I attack epirus even before my first war with ottos so that they don’t have an annoying ally to help them. For your first idea defensive is a good one, or religious.

 

[atwix]

Get more allies like muscovy and whoever rivalled ottomans. If ottomans get age ability for their siege ability they win all wars unless you can blockade straits.

Cripple them early and do not take their capital.

Try allying rival of otto that got navy.. venice or aragon. What you also can do is spy network otto. If you see they will declare on someone tiny then no cb attack. Vassalise the target when otto is warring them.. and then call in all allies for free in resulting defensive war

 

[sekelsenmat]

You waited a lot of time and now ottos are strong. It is not impossible to beat them since Austria is your ally. Just hope France doesn’t attack them while they are at war with ottos.

If you savescum I would try to attack them earlier. Delete unnecessary forts like Gelibolu. Austria is ottos’ rival, that´s why they wanted to ally you. What about your own rivals? If Genoa is not your rival you should try to ally them, you may even ally them after their war against ottos began. You would then be dragged into this defensive war. Carpet siege the balkans and make a separate peace to take coasts. You may also ally turkish minors, same idea, be dragged into defensive war and take lands in separate peace. Once ottos have a common frontier with mamluks, it is a good idea to ally them too. Don’t be afraid of having too many allies. But don’t fight wars you don’t want to fight.

For naval superiority you may also consider allying the knights or cyprus. You can also attack epirus and vassalize them to get stronger at sea. I attack epirus even before my first war with ottos so that they don’t have an annoying ally to help them. For your first idea defensive is a good one, or religious.

I don't see how I could have waited too much, the truce of the first war ended like 1460. My original allies were Hungary, Wallachia, Albania. Lost Hungary when it fell in PU with Austria. A few years ago when I last played eu4 this historical fact seemed to never happen.....

Genoa rivaled me and hates me. Despite the absurd that we would be obviously ideal allies.

Venice didn't rival me, but won't ally me either due to too many allies. Aragon same. I already tried those two. And they don't rival anyone I can rival.

Musowy is very far away, too early to be useful if they manage to expand (which again a few years back they usually failed to).

And if I refuse the offensive call to arms from Albania I wonder if I won't get marked with a "unreliable" reputation and get even harder to get allies...

But I see where you are going, I should set rivals to the rivals of those I want to ally! But I already set 3 rivals and I didn't know that there is a stupidly long timer to change the rivals now.... Is that 20 years? I don't this mistake in the save right after winning the war in 51, so another reason to go back...

Im not sure how to ally the Turks since it doesn't even list for me as possible rivals other Turkish minors... I had like Naples, Genoa, Venice, plus 2 others to choose from....

But yes, Turks or Mamluks would be the best since they could get eastern provinces in peace's.

Epirus allied Ferrara or something, so I left them be on game start, thought maybe I should dogpile them if anyone dows Ferrara.

 

[sekelsenmat]

Ok, I see I can ally Aq Qonyulu in 51 before the Otto's ally them. Funny.

I still wonder what are the opinions on galley Vs heavy ship's, I wanted to do galley only but if the Otto's are building heavies maybe they knew what they are doing...m

 

[RedArmy]

You should have both heavy ships and galleys, the first for fire power, the second for maneuvers (speed).

You need some luck for the first war as byzantium, but the second one should be easier if well prepared. Albania is useless now, just drop the alliance before they are attacked by Serbia. You may even ally Serbia instead. Don’t forget to use your diplo actions to get favorable opinions of Ottos’ rivals, like insulting the Ottos. Yes allying AQ is a good idea to distract the Ottos in the east.

I see you didn’t take many lands from your first war... Why? You should now own most of Greek coast line. If you need to, you may truce break and attack Ottos right after your first peace deal.

 

[RedArmy]

Another idea, if you can’t ally Ottos’ next target, like Genoa, you may just guarantee them to get involved in the war.

 

[sekelsenmat]

You should have both heavy ships and galleys, the first for fire power, the second for maneuvers (speed).

You need some luck for the first war as byzantium, but the second one should be easier if well prepared. Albania is useless now, just drop the alliance before they are attacked by Serbia. You may even ally Serbia instead. Don’t forget to use your diplo actions to get favorable opinions of Ottos’ rivals, like insulting the Ottos. Yes allying AQ is a good idea to distract the Ottos in the east.

I see you didn’t take many lands from your first war... Why? You should now own most of Greek coast line. If you need to, you may truce break and attack Ottos right after your first peace deal.

The provinces I took are not numerous, but they were the most developed ones, worth about 50% war score.

I had all ottoman Balkans occupied and I couldn't cross the streits because Otto armies are like an orc horde, they would kill my combined (Byz+Albania) army if I did cross, that was as much as I could get them to agree to. Maybe I should have given nothing to Albania too since I now realize they are useless after the 1st war.... This would net me 1 more province, I do have a save from right before the peace....

 

[RedArmy]

Yes, give nothing to Albania. Development does not matter early on. However max navy limit depends on the number of coastal provinces. Take as much coasts as you can. Your warscore should increase increase without doing anything if you wait, as you occupy your objective. Albania may also decide to white peace Ottos if you wait long enough.

Later in the war you may also let the Ottos armies cross the strait to siege Constantinople and try to take a few fortresses in Anatolia to increase your warscore before the end of Constantinople siege. This is a dangerous move through. I also took one province in Anatolia, the one in front of Gelibolu in case my navy in inferior to Ottos in future wars.

 

[RedArmy]

Don’t be afraid of taking loans and recruiting mercenaries if needed, they can win a battle against the Ottos (2 to 1 in favorable terrain) without consuming your manpower and then get disbanded.

 

[Josar]

See if you can ally the Mamuluks, increase relations, scornfully insult one of their rivals (likely the Ottomans), set your attitude manually to threatened, and build up to your force limit. This should flip them to friendly, and allow you to ally them. Then you want to call them into a war with the promise of land, and hopefully some allies on the Balkans side. The Ottomans have extreme trouble with a two front war like this, especially when you control calliope.

Alternatively, if you restart, ally Theodore before you unpause the game. This helps prevent early aggression from the Ottomans, but do not royal marry them. You will also want to improve relations with Hungary right away, and try to rival it's rivals (Venice is often an option). The fist war should be with Epirus. If they have no allies great, but if they are allied with Genoa, you might even be able to take an island like lesbos from them (depends on how they split their navy). Once you max war core from Epirus you will likely want to take your core and vassalize them. This gives you extra force limit, maybe 1 regiment under Epirus, and around 9 extra boats from Epirus. The extra force limit means you will be able to ally easier with the bigger powers. Now as Hungary relations improve to 90 you will likely need to scornfully insult a rival of theirs to get over a 100. This usually puts them as friendly, but if not you can likely royal marry them too. With Hungary in tow, you can dissolve the alliance with Theodore, and ally either Albania (good general and extra ships), Wallachia (more troops and start with 5 extra discipline), or if Poland did not get the Jagellion dynasty Lithuania. You will have to improve relations a bit with all of these nation's to get an alliance. When Hungary's truce timer ends in 1449 December call allies in with a promise of land and concentrate sieging down the galliope first, and then the rest of the Balkans, then if you can cross the straits, Anatolia. Let vassals attack to your army In the first war with the Ottomans you will want to aim to atleast connect your lands with a thin strip, but the best case scenario is you take all your cores back, while giving one province to all allies who will take land, and maybe if you have to war score one province on the Anatolian side.

Additionally their are some internal things you can do. Set your monarch focus to military, and give the nobility the privilege for the +1 monthly military point. The goal is to reach tech 5 before the Ottomans which gives you an upgrade to your troops. Give the strong duchy privilege to the nobility, which gives you +2 relations and -10 liberty desire in vassals. This privilege only shows up if you have 2 vassals like Athens, and Epirus. You can support Byzantine rebels in the various Aegean islands held by Venice, Genoa, and I think even Cyprus early game. It does not show up on the province screen because they seem to not be the most prominent rebel type, but you can support them, and because the AI is reluctant to do naval invasions, you will often get these islands for free.

Ask me if you have any other questions.

 

[sekelsenmat]

You should have both heavy ships and galleys, the first for fire power, the second for maneuvers (speed).

You need some luck for the first war as byzantium, but the second one should be easier if well prepared. Albania is useless now, just drop the alliance before they are attacked by Serbia. You may even ally Serbia instead. Don’t forget to use your diplo actions to get favorable opinions of Ottos’ rivals, like insulting the Ottos. Yes allying AQ is a good idea to distract the Ottos in the east.

I see you didn’t take many lands from your first war... Why? You should now own most of Greek coast line. If you need to, you may truce break and attack Ottos right after your first peace deal.

So I went back to right before the peace and took more sea provinces as instructed. Dropped Albania as ally, added Aq Quoyulu.

Next the Mamluks attacked the ottomans! What a stroke of luck. It looks like that Byzantium is only possible with savescumming, because this kind of stuff either happens or don't....

So I broke the truce and dogpilled them:

 

[sekelsenmat]

This is what I should be looking to get on the second peace?

PS: I need the money because I am in deep debt...

 

[RedArmy]

Good job!
Don’t take their capital Edirne, more coast lines is better choice. After the peace deal, release one province as vassal Bulgaria and feed them Northern Balkans in your third war!

 

[Josar]

One thing you can do after you first war is improve relations with Candar, then when Ottomans attack Candar quickly ally them and get pulled into the war siege down their capital, and take a province or 2 in a separate peace, this will also reduce the truce timer.

In any case, with where you are now, I would take a peace deal that gives you a border with either Albania or Wallachia. It's good to have other avenues of expansion. You also may be able to snipe a few provinces from Venice if you have decent allies, or they are losing a war (Austria commonly attacks them at some point).

Watch out for your aggressive expansion, breaking truces can increase this a lot. One of the many reason to ally the Mamuluks, is that they will not gain AE nearly as quickly from you taking Sunni provinces.

 

[st360]

Dont panic. Heavy ships are not that good versus galleys in inland seas. Build galleys to your force limit, and then go a bit over. Sell or delete transports and light ships, they are very bad. Try to get a +10 naval morale advisor. And get a good admiral. At the very least, the Ottomans wont engage 20 galleys with 3 heavies, 12 galleys and 10 transports. You can also declare war when they have 3-4 ships in a sea zone where your whole navy is, for a instant win.

In the peace deal, don't take anything on the other side of the strait. You will loose and ruin your country pointlessly while there is still territory in Bulgaria you can get for free by strait blocking. Remember, as long as there is even 1 province on your side of the straits, that's a war where you can get 30% war score for free.

And TAKE MAXIMUM MONEY! Max money costs 35% of war score, but its hundreds of gold at a time where your income is +1 gold a month. Would you rather take 2 extra provinces of wrong religion that will revolt 20k rebels or 400 gold?

Truces between Ottoman wars are long, and you should be at max manpower after the Ottoman war ends, so expand in the Balkans too. Maybe even try to get 1 province in Italy if you see a weak enemy with not a lot of allies.

 

[sekelsenmat]

Good job!
Don’t take their capital Edirne, more coast lines is better choice. After the peace deal, release one province as vassal Bulgaria and feed them Northern Balkans in your third war!

Thanks! Although honestly I did a lot of savescumming in the 1st war and the in 2nd war, well, the Mameluks just destroyed the whole thing and I took for free some stuff. Stackswiped a 9k stack recovering from a battle with the Mamluks.... destroyed some ships, so I basically did nothing of merit in either war....

No idea how, but the Mameluks somehow managed to defeate their main army of about 20k..... The Ottos were actually reduced to zero soldiers and zero manpower during this war!

After this things just got wierder. Serbia and Wallachia attacked the Ottomans, so I was forced to attack Serbia to reclaim some imperial land they took, while they were distracted fighting a war with Hungary .... and the Ottomans they now ceased to exist. They were dogpilled by everyone in sight: Poland, Ramazan, Mamluks again, you name it. If it walks or swims, it is attacking the Ottomans. They already bankrupted twice .... ok, they are dead.

One thing I disagree with however: Vassal Bulgaria? Come'on, Belisarius's grand-grand-....-son will never release any imperial province!

My only issue now is that I am already at 77 aggressive expansion for the Mamluks, they already coalitioned me but didn't declare and got out of the coalition. No idea why they are so interrested in Anatolia.... Aq Quoyulu couldn't care less about my anti-turkish campaign....

Also my ally Hungary is sitting on 1 province I need for the achievement...

 

[st360]

My only issue now is that I am already at 77 aggressive expansion for the Mamluks

When a foreign religion attacks your religion, you get massive agressive expansion. Mamulks got it cause you as a christian took a lot of muslim ottoman land.

Ally Aq Quonyu and Quara Quonju (or whatever the f those 2 big muslim countries in the east are called) since allies get only 50% of your aggressive expansion. If one of them is allies with Mamluks, forget about expanding anywhere in Muslim lands for the next 200 years.

If you can ally both (you don't need to call them into wars), then kill off the small Muslims around the Mamulks so that they cant join coalitions.

 

[RedArmy]

One war in the east, then one war in the west, and so on.
AE needs to cool down to -50 so that coalition can’t form. I think you will wait around ten years.
When your armies are big enough and you are ahead in mil tech you won’t worry anymore about a muslim coalition. Just attack the coalition.

 

[Big Bad France]

It looks like you managed it nicely. I'd say that if you had their armies locked with your fleets in the first war, you didn't take enough land. You should be able to get at least most of your cores back in that one by letting the war score tick up. If you had more coast, they would have had a harder time rebuilding their navy. Otherwise, nice work. It looks like you can probably vassalize them in the next war and then use the reconquest CB for a lot of cores.