With elective he runs the risk of not getting the heir he wants. Why bother with it since one can basically elect the heir risk-free in primo?
Byzantium problems
- Thread starter Aotrs Commander
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You could check that your vassals aren't angry at you because you have their de-jure holdings as your vassals.
Open your character page, click vassals tab and check your relations with each duke and count. See if there are any negative modifiers for "desires barony of xyz".
I've noticed in some Byzantine starts, the emperor is liege lord of various barons and mayors throughout the empire, but the counties those baronies and mayors are in aren't owned by you, they're owned by your counts or dukes, and they're not happy about it, giving a permanent relationship negative modifier.
Open your character page, click vassals tab and check your relations with each duke and count. See if there are any negative modifiers for "desires barony of xyz".
I've noticed in some Byzantine starts, the emperor is liege lord of various barons and mayors throughout the empire, but the counties those baronies and mayors are in aren't owned by you, they're owned by your counts or dukes, and they're not happy about it, giving a permanent relationship negative modifier.
Two empty slots in Rome currently; not sure what the third slot is.
It's gonna be my capital eventually (I think I have to , don't I, to form the Roman Empire, which is sort of the objective for this playthrough to bring it into EUIV), but needs development first, then.
('Nother castle is obvious - should the last slot be a city or a third castle in this case.)
(I'm on Charlmagne, so I can only revoke viceroyalties for free.)
So... From both of the aboce, what I need to do is have a one-count-per-county policy (might need more counts...) and then promote one of the counts in that duchy to duke (well viceroyalty duke anyway) and so then all the counts in that duchy will be his vassals and not mine? Presumably decreasing my vassal count (since they're like, his problem now) and allowing my to use said count on duchies (and kingdoms), not counties?
Presumably this then applies to the kingdom scale as well?
I do appear to have BITP for all my children and one of the first things I did (like in 769) was switch to elective.
The only problem with that is if your chosen heir goes down the scupper (as one did already) and your second-best choice would have been an older son, you're kinda buggered. (My eugenics program has kinda fallen apart on the basis could I buggery find and decent females and the one I did marry off to my best child candiate first produced a crap hunchaback and then never passed her Genius one to anyone...!)
If (see merchant republics thing later) I have more doges that strategos, will that impinge of my ability to pick my heirs more than currently?
Edit: Also, I can't get primo back until I get legalism 3, which I don't think I have have. So elective's gonna be it fo a while...!
So, more doges, less strategos? (Or "as many doges as I can possibly have, everyone else Strategos or viceroyalty king")? Will that impede my ability to control my vassals more as I can't then viceroyalty them or is that countered by rebellious merchant republics being less of a hassle to deal with because of smaller levy sizes...?
(You can't have viceroyalty merchant republics, can you?)
Edit edit: Am I also correctly reading all this that one way to deal with troublesome vassals in king-over it yoink their viceroyalty sharpish like, before they can get too uppity and slap it onto someone else in their duchy so it becomes that other guy's problem?
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This is really important, I think. With the council empowered and war declaration on, none of your council can join factions. Put all your most powerful vassals on the council and you've neutered the threat bigtime.
I would actually recommend you reconsider your starting date as well. Byzantium in 769 is actually pretty difficult because of the Iconoclast wars going on inside the empire. You easily have enough time to reform the Roman Empire in 867, you start with a MUCH better ruler, and there aren't any issues with heresy that there are in 769. Not to mention the Abbasids have recently imploded so they don't control even 1/3 as much territory that they do in 769.
In the capital county I go castles only - more troop bonus. In the rest of the counties I own I go towns only - more cash to support those troops. That is, if I can. If it's already been built up otherwise nothing I can do about it. Oh and make sure you own EVERY county in the de jure duchy or other counts (in that de jure duchy) will hate your face for it.
I guess if you go Thrake and Latium that's 6 counties, the Basileos can easily go up to demesne limit of 10+ so you can hold onto quite a few extra castles in capital.
On dukes, yeah, that's the deal with it, once you give him the duchy (viceroyalty), all counts becomes their vassal. An average duke can hold 20 counts as vassal (can be lower depending on their centralization law), a grand duke (2 or more duchies) 5 more, so 25. And yeah, this goes for kingdom level as well.
I can't tell you about strategoi since i don't have CM. But yeah, dealing troublesome vassals is done like that. Transfer him under to a higher rank, or revoke his stuff and give it to someone else so he will be under him.
My basic strategies for ERE on Makedon Dynasty (In conrast to previous comments I find Isaurian Dynasty much easier) :
- Do not hurry to finish Aghlabid War +40 bonus is good until I create my light infantry retinue full - I recruit them till they are 11k after that I recruit defence retinues -
- I mostly holy war bari before the king of italy takes it - you should even use your own levies and get all into boats and siege that two counties before the army of the Italian King arrive-
- Before returning Aghlabid War I keep assured that I had all LI retinue filled - takes around 4 years never used them just parked them in capital to deter factions 11k is my loved limit even on absolute rule got no faction revolts -
- Finish the Aghlabid Conquest with victory do not worry to use your own levies - you have maxed LI - be sure that you get enough money and prestige to form varangians I think as your vassal they are counted as loyal troops so they reduce factions power - same as raised brotherhood -
- then take small italian duchies and counties one by one
- If you are lucky during that time your 20+ chancellor finally claimed rome before pope building any more temples in them - +20 chancellor should be sended to rome at the start of the game he may get the claim in 5 years, wait till that time and do not borrow money from jews keep a reserve of 500 golds I set rome as my capital and I ragequit many times pope built a temple before claim war-
- As for laws If you like realm peace so war declaration committee is necessary also council members do not join factions after I get 11k LI retinue I begin to roll back to absolute rule +2 holdings are more important and if you have varangians and 10k retinues factions are history
after the first decade holy war for serbia and small anatolian emirs.
Attack any rebelling Bulgarian-Tulinid-Aghlabid-Abbasid dukes I holy warred them even got managed to take Jerusalem and formed the brotherhood before 900 then Jihad things happens where I rule now. Does the Brotherhood worth it 7700 free fanatic? YES INDEED
So having buried his older two son Basil I was still alive on my Tianxia Mod before I restart a new one on US mod -I like their map more-.
PS. I forgot to say I took Italy, Georgia, and Armenia on claim Wars. Coalitions? They are more managable than Jihad just assault enemy holdings with mercs before the whole world reach the scene.
- Do not hurry to finish Aghlabid War +40 bonus is good until I create my light infantry retinue full - I recruit them till they are 11k after that I recruit defence retinues -
- I mostly holy war bari before the king of italy takes it - you should even use your own levies and get all into boats and siege that two counties before the army of the Italian King arrive-
- Before returning Aghlabid War I keep assured that I had all LI retinue filled - takes around 4 years never used them just parked them in capital to deter factions 11k is my loved limit even on absolute rule got no faction revolts -
- Finish the Aghlabid Conquest with victory do not worry to use your own levies - you have maxed LI - be sure that you get enough money and prestige to form varangians I think as your vassal they are counted as loyal troops so they reduce factions power - same as raised brotherhood -
- then take small italian duchies and counties one by one
- If you are lucky during that time your 20+ chancellor finally claimed rome before pope building any more temples in them - +20 chancellor should be sended to rome at the start of the game he may get the claim in 5 years, wait till that time and do not borrow money from jews keep a reserve of 500 golds I set rome as my capital and I ragequit many times pope built a temple before claim war-
- As for laws If you like realm peace so war declaration committee is necessary also council members do not join factions after I get 11k LI retinue I begin to roll back to absolute rule +2 holdings are more important and if you have varangians and 10k retinues factions are history
after the first decade holy war for serbia and small anatolian emirs.
Attack any rebelling Bulgarian-Tulinid-Aghlabid-Abbasid dukes I holy warred them even got managed to take Jerusalem and formed the brotherhood before 900 then Jihad things happens where I rule now. Does the Brotherhood worth it 7700 free fanatic? YES INDEED
So having buried his older two son Basil I was still alive on my Tianxia Mod before I restart a new one on US mod -I like their map more-.
PS. I forgot to say I took Italy, Georgia, and Armenia on claim Wars. Coalitions? They are more managable than Jihad just assault enemy holdings with mercs before the whole world reach the scene.
Okay, I spent absolutely ages going through my entire empire and writing stuff down and identifying problem areas.
Some of it is okay. Some of it I can fix at viceroy-over. Some of it is a mess, frankly.
The Aegean islands are all owned by the Strategos the Aegean.
The strategos of Charsianon owns two counties in Cilicia, where the heir is strategos but had no land.
I've got a doux in Modena (not much I could do about that, one of my vassals must have gotten that) with a county in a neighbouring duchy...
So, the question is, how to I get rid of counts? I presume I first have to be a direct liege (so can't do nowt while the viceroyalties are in place) and then I can snatch them and aside to everyone else. Problem is, that looks like it's going to give me an opinion hit. I presume that stacks, yes? So if I do it several times to try and fix this mess, I'm going to have a lot of unhappy and potentially rebellious other vassal, unless I manage to miraculously time it so I pop my clogs almost instantly afterwards.
Most these folks have got heirs and families, so plotting is going to take AGES to get shot of them...
What are my opinons? I presume that I do need to worry a little about the current-viceroys who have more than one county to their name.
Some of it is okay. Some of it I can fix at viceroy-over. Some of it is a mess, frankly.
The Aegean islands are all owned by the Strategos the Aegean.
The strategos of Charsianon owns two counties in Cilicia, where the heir is strategos but had no land.
I've got a doux in Modena (not much I could do about that, one of my vassals must have gotten that) with a county in a neighbouring duchy...
So, the question is, how to I get rid of counts? I presume I first have to be a direct liege (so can't do nowt while the viceroyalties are in place) and then I can snatch them and aside to everyone else. Problem is, that looks like it's going to give me an opinion hit. I presume that stacks, yes? So if I do it several times to try and fix this mess, I'm going to have a lot of unhappy and potentially rebellious other vassal, unless I manage to miraculously time it so I pop my clogs almost instantly afterwards.
Most these folks have got heirs and families, so plotting is going to take AGES to get shot of them...
What are my opinons? I presume that I do need to worry a little about the current-viceroys who have more than one county to their name.
Excommunicate and imprison is your only option for your statements of the counts. The other solution may backfire if you are new to ck2 : reign of tyranny.
Wouldn't execution just give the land back to the count's heir?
I think the empire is bit too big to fo reign of tyranny on. I have seriously considered it, though.
I think the empire is bit too big to fo reign of tyranny on. I have seriously considered it, though.
Perhaps you should start at a point where the Byzantine Empire is smaller, more compact, and cleaner. 1081 (Alexiad) bookmark is an excellent choice. Almost all of your empire's de-jure land is owned by the correct strategos. In fact, I think all of it is. The strategos of Athens and his vassals, for example, only hold land inside the duchy of Athens. And it's the same everywhere.
The only exception is the strategos of Adrianople, who has the count of Chalkidike (which is in the duchy of Thessalonika) as his vassal, but this is easily remedied. Just wait for the crusade against Rum Sultanate (Pope always calls a crusade immediately for Rum in this bookmark) and snag the duchy of Nikaea in a holy war of your own, then give the count of Chalkidike the duchy of Thessalonika (as a viceroyalty) and give the other two counties in Thessalonika to whoever, and transfer their vassalage to him. Hey presto. You now have a totally internally-clean empire, and you personally own some extremely wealthy and powerful land.
From here you can deal with any internal problems as they pop up, and you can slowly grow and learn the ropes as you go.
You don't want to kill them. You excommunicate them, and imprison them. You want the imprisonment to fail so they rebel. (repeat release/imprisonment until they do) You siege down that county lightning quick and revoke his stuff for free cuz he is being a traitor.
Actually - upon learning I could revoke titles from prisioners without as much fuss - I lucked out. One of the problem guys, at least, was a filithy iconoclast, so I was able to strip his titles completely without fuss. Quick knobble of the local mayor (also a filthy iconoclast) and I was able to turn Abkhazia into a new merchant republic on the spot. It left me with two new counties, which take me to my limit. I'm holding on to them for the moment, for the cash flow.
The other issues... Are going to be long-term things, I fear. The most egregious problem I can't fix, since I handed out my viceroylty kingdom a bit hastily, unfortunately; and while the strategos in question is languishing my dungeon, I can't sdtrip his titles off him unfortunately as he's now a vassal of a vassal.
Still, I've cleaned up a modest number of the issues, and now it's just a case of playing the waiting game until someone Does A Naughty and ends up in my slammer and/or I can deal with them during vice-king-over...
So... progress...! And I know now how to make a better job of it for future conquests!
On snap, only just in time!
Abkhazia converted to othodox barely a month after I unpaused...!
The other issues... Are going to be long-term things, I fear. The most egregious problem I can't fix, since I handed out my viceroylty kingdom a bit hastily, unfortunately; and while the strategos in question is languishing my dungeon, I can't sdtrip his titles off him unfortunately as he's now a vassal of a vassal.
Still, I've cleaned up a modest number of the issues, and now it's just a case of playing the waiting game until someone Does A Naughty and ends up in my slammer and/or I can deal with them during vice-king-over...
So... progress...! And I know now how to make a better job of it for future conquests!
On snap, only just in time!
Abkhazia converted to othodox barely a month after I unpaused...!
Yeah, progress it is. I once inherited the HRE, I lucked out with some marriage, it wasn't even intentional, I just checked and my son was next in line for the throne. Boy, was THAT a mess, lol. I went over vassal limit with like 30, I had no piety since I'd just come of age and thus couldnt make any kingdom titles, and the sheer bordergore the AI managed to make.... since then I only press kingdom level CB's if it's not mine or I can request invasion, I ain't gonna clean that up once more.
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Just wait until one of your dukes decides to holy war a neighbouring heretic/infidel and wins. Usually it's the strategos of Moesia or Kervauna who holy war the Wallachia area. Then you see some real border gore, internally and externally. And what's worse, they end up owning a hereditary duchy because they just holy warred it.
In one game, whilst I was a child with a regent, my duke of Dioclea fabricated claims and took both duchies in Serbia, then created the kingdom himself. He then proceeded to fabricate claims and take vassals all over the empire. Apart from Serbia he owned land all over Greece, some in Bulgaria, some in Anatolia, and he even ended up owning the county of Antioch. He was more powerful than I was - the emperor.
And I couldn't do a damn thing about it because my crown laws were set to nil during the regency, so I couldn't even revoke titles if I had a legitimate reason to do so. I waited until my ruler was in his 80's, paused the game, and imprisoned every member of his dynasty and executed them in revenge. It was the Dulkjanin dynasty of Serbia. I didn't even spare the children or pregnant women. Around 70-80 people executed in all. When only the king of Serbia was left, I castrated him and released him from prison.
Even today, when I play as the Byzantine Emperor, I still look at the Dulkjanins of Serbia and think to myself "You know what happens if you try that shit again, so don't try it..." haha.
Constantinople as the capital but you probably should keep both duchies in your demesne anyway since Rome is pretty rich once you build it up. Think of it as the Emperors vacation home.
Two reasons. One, opinion bonus. Two (probably more importantly), every de jure duke can start a faction to claim the throne for himself, meaning if civil war breaks out you're stomping five minor rebellions that might fight among themselves vs. a single unified rebellion.
Okay. Need some help here. I'm at my vassal limit and i'm basically going to have to start handing out bits of Italy and Greece to the surrounding kindoms to cut me some slack to do anything with, conquest-wise. I'm largely surrounded by large powers (at least three other empires on the map, none of which are showing any signs of instability), so there's not much I can easily blitz and damn the threat; it's also getting on towards Jihad period.
Political
Direct vassal
Threat appears to basically mean I can fight one holy war (and/or presumably imperial reconquest) once every ten years. I can maybe grab the kindoms of Croatia, Bulgaria or Africa with one more a piece with what provinces I have. I have an alternate save a bit later on where the Anatolian King died and left me in a holy war for mesopotamia (two counties) and basically required me to fight another holy war for Armenia; which would have required me to fight a second to grab the kingdom of Armenia and basically undo all the time I've spent ticking down the threat for not much gain.
Picking at provinces one at a time for lower threat has two problems - for one, more vassals I'd have to hold onto (or annoy people by taking away) until I could establish a kingdom and two, as I believe the Warscore would require me to occupy everywhere to achive a quick blitz, a long-drawn out slugging match everytime I did so.
What do I do?
At the moment, in my own mind ion the cold light of day, my "best" option seems to be Bulgaria (one imperial reconquest will net me two counties, though I THINK a war for a single province would net me over 50%), which I can easily parcel some of Greece off onto (and not worry about if it gets absorbed over time) and probably the African Revolt, since fove p[rovinces in a holy war is about the best I can get.... and MAYBE after that Croatia, but that looks like it will be a long-drawn-out slugging match with Carpathia. Thoughts?
Political
Direct vassal
Threat appears to basically mean I can fight one holy war (and/or presumably imperial reconquest) once every ten years. I can maybe grab the kindoms of Croatia, Bulgaria or Africa with one more a piece with what provinces I have. I have an alternate save a bit later on where the Anatolian King died and left me in a holy war for mesopotamia (two counties) and basically required me to fight another holy war for Armenia; which would have required me to fight a second to grab the kingdom of Armenia and basically undo all the time I've spent ticking down the threat for not much gain.
Picking at provinces one at a time for lower threat has two problems - for one, more vassals I'd have to hold onto (or annoy people by taking away) until I could establish a kingdom and two, as I believe the Warscore would require me to occupy everywhere to achive a quick blitz, a long-drawn out slugging match everytime I did so.
What do I do?
At the moment, in my own mind ion the cold light of day, my "best" option seems to be Bulgaria (one imperial reconquest will net me two counties, though I THINK a war for a single province would net me over 50%), which I can easily parcel some of Greece off onto (and not worry about if it gets absorbed over time) and probably the African Revolt, since fove p[rovinces in a holy war is about the best I can get.... and MAYBE after that Croatia, but that looks like it will be a long-drawn-out slugging match with Carpathia. Thoughts?
Nice, I like the idea of ruling the Wholely Roman Empire.
Not to mention the fact that it will make a EU4 conversion... interesting to say the least, you won't be an OP blob from the start for one thing.
If Pisa and Genoa aren't merchant republics I would hand out kingdom of Italy to some and start to make double doux-es in Greece. Those duchys are small enough anyway, no real harm in giving one person Crete and Cyprus, Achaia and Athens and so on. You could even consider making treble doux-es. If you don't want to make Italy then I guess it would be best to give Spoleto and Ancona to Sicily and make the rest double or treble doux-es as well. As for enemies, the only one I would really worry about would be the Abbasids. Concentrate on them first, make NAPs with the christians so you don't have to worry about your back (Umayyads will take years marching for you), break truces if necessary until you crush them to a managable size. Concentrate on coastal duchys, ship the troops, assault siege it down, back to ship. Your warscore will be high enough if you occupy most things in the target duchy, if you occupy everything you get ticking score too. You will be capped at 99 warscore if you avoid battles but usually that's enough. If not, pick some weaker army and crush them.Okay. Need some help here. I'm at my vassal limit and i'm basically going to have to start handing out bits of Italy and Greece to the surrounding kindoms to cut me some slack to do anything with, conquest-wise. I'm largely surrounded by large powers (at least three other empires on the map, none of which are showing any signs of instability), so there's not much I can easily blitz and damn the threat; it's also getting on towards Jihad period.
Political
Direct vassal
Threat appears to basically mean I can fight one holy war (and/or presumably imperial reconquest) once every ten years. I can maybe grab the kindoms of Croatia, Bulgaria or Africa with one more a piece with what provinces I have. I have an alternate save a bit later on where the Anatolian King died and left me in a holy war for mesopotamia (two counties) and basically required me to fight another holy war for Armenia; which would have required me to fight a second to grab the kingdom of Armenia and basically undo all the time I've spent ticking down the threat for not much gain.
Picking at provinces one at a time for lower threat has two problems - for one, more vassals I'd have to hold onto (or annoy people by taking away) until I could establish a kingdom and two, as I believe the Warscore would require me to occupy everywhere to achive a quick blitz, a long-drawn out slugging match everytime I did so.
What do I do?
At the moment, in my own mind ion the cold light of day, my "best" option seems to be Bulgaria (one imperial reconquest will net me two counties, though I THINK a war for a single province would net me over 50%), which I can easily parcel some of Greece off onto (and not worry about if it gets absorbed over time) and probably the African Revolt, since fove p[rovinces in a holy war is about the best I can get.... and MAYBE after that Croatia, but that looks like it will be a long-drawn-out slugging match with Carpathia. Thoughts?
Genoa is, as are several of the two-county duchies in Greece and Italy; though not Pisa, it was a doux when I inherited Lombardy and I think I've only just gotten around to vice-royalty-ing it. (I actually reached my merchant republic cap before I ran out of two-county duchies - I think I'm technically OVER the cap, now, actually...!)
Double-duchying is not an approach I'd thought of; someone else had suggested transferring vassage to other kingdoms, but actually, double-duchying would probably be a better short-term solution, actually; it gives me a bit of wiggle room (and if I do the ones in northern Greece, they might actually go get another province in Bavaria or something for me...)
I'm planning to wait until my threat has dissipated before I make any serious conquest undertakings, on the basis that should allow me 2-3 wars in succession without bringing me to over 50%.
Need to look into how I get non-aggression pacts, though; not really tried much in that regard other than marrying people off occasionally (mostly, I have been trying - and largely failing, aside from my current heir) to eungenics my dynasty.