Byzantium problems

[Aotrs Commander]

I'm having trouble even getting started. I put in a custom ruler in Bzantium Empire at the 769 start (the end-goal is Roman Empire for save-transition to EUIV) , having done the tutorial and thoroughly read the guides. I'm playing on Easy. I'm on 2.5.2.2, with all expansions except horse-lords and conclave.

Within five years, I have had two factions rise up that are too big to fight. The first demaning elective monarchy (which was okay to some extent, since I wanted that anyway but couldn't implement it because apparently starting with a custom ruler is assumed to have just taken the throne). The second is demanding a rduction of crown authority.

There's no way i can fight these factions. I just tried revoking the titles of the viceroyalties, but they all just revolted.

I started out by starting to spend the limit amount of gold on retinue (and making the Mallorca dutchy so it could be a viceroyalty before the count made it his own), as the recommendation in the Roman Empire guide is to build yp forces fast to keep you vassals in line. But I haven't had time to build anything up; I didn't immediately start any wars, assuming that I might need a few years to at least build my retinue.

What did I do wrong?

Is the Empire so on a knife edge at the start of the game you literally daren't replace the starting leader because those tiny extra maluses cause problems? Should I have immediately started revoking and supressing viceroyalties with levies at the very start of the game? Should I have immediately attacked Croatia or Venice or something right out of the gate? How do you deal with this sort of problem when you have both limited time and money? Is basically the alternative to suck it up and have to drop my crown authority (and probably let them start to fight among themselves)while I build up enough troops to be able to handle any later issues?

(I'm really glad I didn't get conclave if vassals are HARDER to handle...)

Help would be appreciated.

 

[Silversweeeper]

If you have only played the tutorial and read some guides, playing as the ERE is not recommended. While the game claims that they are fairly easy due to the number of vassals, that is a massive lie as having more vassals doesn't necessarily make a realm stronger. A large realm is generally safe from outside threats (though the Abbasids are a concern for the ERE in 769), but unless you have a lot of experience with vassal management you will end up having trouble as they will want more power for themselves. It is much easier to get a hang of vassal management by starting small and working your way up as there are fewer people to keep track of in the beginning and you get a better idea for what will cause vassals to become even more unruly and how to deal with factions before the can fire.

 

[Aotrs Commander]

...

Would reign of tyranny work with Bzantium or is it too big? Because aside from everything else, that sounds like tremendous fun.

Subsidary question - do you bhave to exile/execute them or would blinding them work too (thinking of keeping the initial piety costs down maybe)?

 

[Naufragus]

I am actually playing them for the first times right now.

You will ALWAYS have revolts. I mean non stop. Expect them at the beginning and end of your reign,

What you want to look at is the Troop Numbers. You need those to be equal or greater than your vassals. Thats what effects the faction power whether its 70% or 120%

They dont like the VRs. at all. My suggestion is to hand out all the duchies and only make kings VRs. There really is no point to micromanaging duchies every 10 minutes when someone dies.

You need to build up some baronies since you have the $$

My suggestion is take over all the baronies in the provinces adjacent to constaninople. When you raise your forces youll have hefty stacks and can move a bit more quickly.

I have refused to give the council any power for 300 years so far. but Its non stop wars. Usually though they arent contigous so you have engage before they all have a chance to form up

Be sure and use your spymaster and stop the powerful from joining factions. Check people in the that faction and target the one with the most troops.

Marry for non aggression pacts.

If its council power then its really up to you. You can just surrender and then have to deal with the council oking stuff.

If you win check the prisoners opinions. If they are negative and its not just the -30 for being imprisoned leave them in jail. ransom the others and put that money into baronies

Keep the Varangian guard at all times. Its like 4 a month You will need them to stop the constant raids from pagens

Really just hand out the duchies and build up baronies.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

ERE Charlemagne start you should always be prepared for a faction revolt 5 years into the game.

Without Conclave expect to have ~3 revolts per ruler in order to acquire enough "suppressed major revolt" modifiers to keep factions from firing.

Look at it this way. It's a benefit for your dynasty to win these, as you get to revoke titles for free and feed them to your dynasty members.

I don't know about others but I personally practice nepotism, oldest nonlanded family member gets land. Once you have basically your entire dynasty owning every barony and county in the realm, you can maybe lower that to ~2 revolts per ruler, and that'd be stretching it.

Having said that, yeah, factions firing are a way of life in any large realm start. Usually all I do is de jure Venice, set up a dynasty member to run it as a Merchant Republic, pay for Venice and Mallorca Duchy, then prepare myself for the inevitable.

Having said that, the Varangian Guard does provide you with a huge revolt buffer. It's part of the reason why the ERE is so stable relative to other realms, as that 4k troop mass early game is a considerable portion of what the ERE can field when they arrive.

 

[Rationalsanity]

Conclave is basically necessary to keep factions in line, thanks to the opinion nerfs that came with the patch. Give them War Declaration authority and council members can't join factions unless they are discontent.

 

[Griff Lancer]

It was not hard to keep Vassals in line before conclave, nor is it hard now.
Listen, before you let a single day at game start go by you need to look at your vassals to determine who is going to be a problem. Hand out titles and have feasts, you need them to like you. When factions start send out your chancellor to members who are on the fence about you, so their opinion of you will increase and they will drop out.
Send your spymaster out to members that don't like you at all to blackmail/threaten them to stay out of factions.
The longer you've reined the more vassals will grow to like you, it gets easier.

 

[Aotrs Commander]

Well.

[Expletive].

I just compared my custom ruler's start to the default.

MASSIVE difference.

A customer ruler apparently doesn't get born in the purple, for starters, and he gets a malus for short reign verses a bonus for long reign. That's a 20-point different in opinion before you even start that's nothing to do with anything I can control.

The vassel CustomGuy had who was most problematic (he has, like 18 holdings or something) was at -75 at the start; the default has him about +25 or something, and aside from one guy at -50, everyone else was in single digits.

CustomGuy didn't even seem to have an option for Varangian guard on his decisions list (I didn't check for default and it's half-past-three now, so I don't feel like booting the game up again to check), so either it opnly pops up when you have the requisites... Or you don't get it for a custom leader.

(Because 4k extra troops might have enabled me to actually fight those revolts...)

Never mind the suggested in ten years to revolt (not five) I might even have had my retinue to strength...



So. The writing appears to be on the wall. Can't start as a custom leader in Bzantine, or at least not the way I was intending, since apparently you HAVE to have loads of vassal opinon buffs; straight net zero isn't good enough, clearly (and you lose out on the starting born in the purple). That's a real bugger.

So, it appears that I will either have to go with the default (and just customise the house as much as I can), or find somewhere I CAN feasilbly start with a custom leader and then have to then BECOME Bzantine emperor. Which sounds like it might be... rather uphill.

Have to think again in the morning, I fear.

 

[Griff Lancer]

What's so important about being a custom character rather then a historical one

 

[Gans]

Conclave is basically necessary to keep factions in line, thanks to the opinion nerfs that came with the patch. Give them War Declaration authority and council members can't join factions unless they are discontent.

The heck? Necessary? I must do something wrong in that case. Even in Byz, once I crushed the first rebellion, I just don't get any more, unless I specifically go for it (with excommunicate-imprison-revoke holy trinity). After that, I will have a strong demesne, I will NAP the 2 or 3 most powerful vassals with marriage (carefully, with me taking their daughters, I don't want their successors to end up with claims on my stuff and hate me for it), and I take care of the rest with the chancellor. I don't really need to fabricate claims as Byz anyway. Successions might be a bit shaky, but thanks to the 'opinion of predecessor' modifier it's smooth sailing most of the time.

To the OP: things to watch out: in 769 start, you start as iconoclast (orthodox heresy) zealous. You either want to convert (you must take scholarship focus and build an observatory to lose zealous and use the renounce iconoclasm decision) or you want to convert everyone else to iconoclast (+35 opinion needed and peace. or they will convert opinion free if they are in your prison). You want to max out your demesne, inside your capital duchy (+50% troops in capital county (even for baronies), +25% in other counties in capital duchy). Send marshal to train troops in your capital. Later when you have the laws to increase demesne limit you may take another duchy for yourself. The rest is pure vassal management, they should always be of your religion and culture, and individually marginally weaker then you. With beating the first rebellion that should be quite easy to do, since you can always revoke traitor's stuff for infamy free.

 

[Aotrs Commander]

What's so important about being a custom character rather then a historical one

'Cos it's more fun? I, like, spent about probably two hours of the roughly nine hours playtime today fiddling around with the customer ruler designer.

I always prefer where possible to create my own race/ruler/character/gubbins as a rule, since I usually find I can better optimise for my own preferences. Usually. (I mean CKII's, like, half RPG sorta, and it's more fun to use one of your own characters than someone else's, generally... Though in this case, apparantly just not practical in this specific starting boundary condition.)

To the OP: things to watch out: in 769 start, you start as iconoclast (orthodox heresy) zealous. You either want to convert (you must take scholarship focus and build an observatory to lose zealous and use the renounce iconoclasm decision) or you want to convert everyone else to iconoclast (+35 opinion needed and peace. or they will convert opinion free if they are in your prison). You want to max out your demesne, inside your capital duchy (+50% troops in capital county (even for baronies), +25% in other counties in capital duchy). Send marshal to train troops in your capital. Later when you have the laws to increase demesne limit you may take another duchy for yourself. The rest is pure vassal management, they should always be of your religion and culture, and individually marginally weaker then you. With beating the first rebellion that should be quite easy to do, since you can always revoke traitor's stuff for infamy free.

Actually as customguy wasn't zealous, first thing I did was renouce iconoclasty... Didn't help much, though!

(Right, I really, REALLY ought to stop blathering and go rest so I can think straight in the morning...!)

 

[Helios Panoptes]

The Varangian Guard can't be immediately hired in 769, because it's made of Vikings and those don't exist yet.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

Yeah you have to survive the first hundred or so years into ~Old Gods period for Varangian Guards to appear.

Oh, and they only like you if you are Orthodox. Don't give them any land ever, if you plan to stay Iconoclast.

 

[Rationalsanity]

The heck? Necessary? I must do something wrong in that case. Even in Byz, once I crushed the first rebellion, I just don't get any more, unless I specifically go for it (with excommunicate-imprison-revoke holy trinity). After that, I will have a strong demesne, I will NAP the 2 or 3 most powerful vassals with marriage (carefully, with me taking their daughters, I don't want their successors to end up with claims on my stuff and hate me for it), and I take care of the rest with the chancellor. I don't really need to fabricate claims as Byz anyway. Successions might be a bit shaky, but thanks to the 'opinion of predecessor' modifier it's smooth sailing most of the time.

To the OP: things to watch out: in 769 start, you start as iconoclast (orthodox heresy) zealous. You either want to convert (you must take scholarship focus and build an observatory to lose zealous and use the renounce iconoclasm decision) or you want to convert everyone else to iconoclast (+35 opinion needed and peace. or they will convert opinion free if they are in your prison). You want to max out your demesne, inside your capital duchy (+50% troops in capital county (even for baronies), +25% in other counties in capital duchy). Send marshal to train troops in your capital. Later when you have the laws to increase demesne limit you may take another duchy for yourself. The rest is pure vassal management, they should always be of your religion and culture, and individually marginally weaker then you. With beating the first rebellion that should be quite easy to do, since you can always revoke traitor's stuff for infamy free.

Maybe necessary was too much, but its certainly very helpful. Particularly for new players.

 

[Aotrs Commander]

Yeah you have to survive the first hundred or so years into ~Old Gods period for Varangian Guards to appear.

Oh, and they only like you if you are Orthodox. Don't give them any land ever, if you plan to stay Iconoclast.

Ah. Right. Well, that would explain it!



I must admit, I'm kinda torn; I'd really sort of like to make the Roman Empire sort of catholic, because as far as I can tell, it's the most powerful and useful religion in EUIV for when (if!) this game gets that far, what with the ability to buy stability and global trade power with influence plus the whole colonial treaty. (Bugger the curio stuff on top as well, the pope basically considerably fuelled Portugal in taking 90% of the worlds entire coastline and every off-continent island/outside of the asian outside of the Baltic...) None of the others seem to have anything like as much ulitity. Orthodoxy seems really kinda meh, actually, since at full patricarhy, you lose quite a bit of taxmoney, and a minimum (though on looking again, it's not as meh as I thought it was, because missionary strength and local missionary strength and a bit confusingly labeled. (Wouldn't have "missionary resistance" been a better term...?)) But that's all really neither here nor there, since if I can't actually hold the empire together...!

 

[Griff Lancer]

Ah. Right. Well, that would explain it!



I must admit, I'm kinda torn; I'd really sort of like to make the Roman Empire sort of catholic, because as far as I can tell, it's the most powerful and useful religion in EUIV for when (if!) this game gets that far, what with the ability to buy stability and global trade power with influence plus the whole colonial treaty. (Bugger the curio stuff on top as well, the pope basically considerably fuelled Portugal in taking 90% of the worlds entire coastline and every off-continent island/outside of the asian outside of the Baltic...) None of the others seem to have anything like as much ulitity. Orthodoxy seems really kinda meh, actually, since at full patricarhy, you lose quite a bit of taxmoney, and a minimum (though on looking again, it's not as meh as I thought it was, because missionary strength and local missionary strength and a bit confusingly labeled. (Wouldn't have "missionary resistance" been a better term...?)) But that's all really neither here nor there, since if I can't actually hold the empire together...!

Looks like they're going to change all that in next eu4 dlc though

 

[scelestus13]

Vassals in this game have always been very easy to manage. Even if you have a revolt, Jewish gold should help you win. As ERE, you have Born in Purple and VG to make it even easier. Never blind/ castrate people, because this releases them, lets them keep their titles, you might get cruel (-10 malus with vassals) AND they get a -80 malus towards you. If you have spare children, send them to be raised by vassals for +20 opinion a pop. Don't feel bad about consolidating realm into a few large vassals who can each be given a few titles (since ERE has so many with significant opinion bonuses) to buy them off. Then play around with conclave laws and council members, intrigue options, chancellor, etc. I can't remember the last time I had a rebellion that wasn't meant to happen (say, when I have a fat stack of cash and want to redistribute titles in realm)

 

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay.

It's 806-ish. Konstantinos V is 87. He's just grabbed Rome, married a hot 18-year old and banged her onw the throne that very night, begetting another son.

Currently, he has about eight holdings, all castles, two in Constantiople and six elsewhere (including rome's new capital barony), where he's been building up a load of castle towns to increase his cash flow. The Varangian Guard is recruited, though his retinue is still a bit too small. The Empire is under elective monarchy. (Which is is well, since aside from good diplomacy, my first son was crap. The most promising guy with good stats and a genius wife (who naturally prroduced a crap hunchback I had to assassinate) got great pox and went bonkers and died, so I've had to settle for a merely not too bad younger son). He's got a couple of demesnes left in his limit, but he's reaching his vassal limit.

I have been, at this point, handing out (viceroyalty) duchies a bit haphazardly, mostly to get them in a position where they can't be nicked. I've just created the Kingdom of Anatolia and Sicily, and (viceroyalty) handed them off to my heir and one other son.

Konstantinos is pretty sure he's done all the conquering he's going to, espeically with that threat rating, so in his remaining time, he figures now might be a good time to try and consolidate the Empire into a better organisation - he figures at this point, if he starts being a bit tyrannical or whatever, everone will jut put it down to the balmy old coot's dotage.


So. Several questions.

First: Rome or Constantinople? Do I switch now or do I try and build Rome up as far as I can first? Constantiople is mush better developed (don't know about the technology, can't run the game to check right now, but I think that's ahead to), and is much closer to the current centre of my empire; my gut says develop Rome first, but I'm open to suggestions.

Subsidary question: I've currently been concentrating my holdings into castles, for the money boost at this stage, while leaving cities as vassals to avoid the "wrong ruler type." Is that the best option to be taking in this instance?



Second. What is the best way to be optimising my vassals? What's the minimum I can get away with handing over to my Strategos - and does giving them the county they are "duke" of reduce my effective vassal count? (Ditto for kingdoms.)

At the start, I was basically just handing out the duchies to people for the opinion boost (and avidng the elector malus) to stabilise while I built up money and whatnot; as Strategos have died, I've mostly just been giving them straight to their heirs again.

As I have a general rule that if I catch anyone Doing A Plot, unless they are instantly useful (possible heir, useful guardian, council member), they go in the clink, so there's a few strategos that can be easily done away with (or left to rot so when they die when the hier takes over, he's got an easy replacement job).

What's the best approach here?



Third: is Primogeniture better than elective monarch? The Roman Empire guide in the wiki seemed to suggest that it probably was, sorta, but I can see possible problems in that if I don't hand out all the duchies I get a malus.



Forth: Merchant republics. I currently have one in Venice (which is fairly easily controlable, since the duchy is just that one county); do I want any more, aside from the other obvious one county-potential in Genoa (when I take that), since I can't viceroyalty them?

 

[Gans]

Okay.

It's 806-ish. Konstantinos V is 87. He's just grabbed Rome, married a hot 18-year old and banged her onw the throne that very night, begetting another son.

Currently, he has about eight holdings, all castles, two in Constantiople and six elsewhere (including rome's new capital barony), where he's been building up a load of castle towns to increase his cash flow. The Varangian Guard is recruited, though his retinue is still a bit too small. The Empire is under elective monarchy. (Which is is well, since aside from good diplomacy, my first son was crap. The most promising guy with good stats and a genius wife (who naturally prroduced a crap hunchback I had to assassinate) got great pox and went bonkers and died, so I've had to settle for a merely not too bad younger son). He's got a couple of demesnes left in his limit, but he's reaching his vassal limit.

I have been, at this point, handing out (viceroyalty) duchies a bit haphazardly, mostly to get them in a position where they can't be nicked. I've just created the Kingdom of Anatolia and Sicily, and (viceroyalty) handed them off to my heir and one other son.

Konstantinos is pretty sure he's done all the conquering he's going to, espeically with that threat rating, so in his remaining time, he figures now might be a good time to try and consolidate the Empire into a better organisation - he figures at this point, if he starts being a bit tyrannical or whatever, everone will jut put it down to the balmy old coot's dotage.


So. Several questions.

First: Rome or Constantinople? Do I switch now or do I try and build Rome up as far as I can first? Constantiople is mush better developed (don't know about the technology, can't run the game to check right now, but I think that's ahead to), and is much closer to the current centre of my empire; my gut says develop Rome first, but I'm open to suggestions.

Subsidary question: I've currently been concentrating my holdings into castles, for the money boost at this stage, while leaving cities as vassals to avoid the "wrong ruler type." Is that the best option to be taking in this instance?



Second. What is the best way to be optimising my vassals? What's the minimum I can get away with handing over to my Strategos - and does giving them the county they are "duke" of reduce my effective vassal count? (Ditto for kingdoms.)

At the start, I was basically just handing out the duchies to people for the opinion boost (and avidng the elector malus) to stabilise while I built up money and whatnot; as Strategos have died, I've mostly just been giving them straight to their heirs again.

As I have a general rule that if I catch anyone Doing A Plot, unless they are instantly useful (possible heir, useful guardian, council member), they go in the clink, so there's a few strategos that can be easily done away with (or left to rot so when they die when the hier takes over, he's got an easy replacement job).

What's the best approach here?



Third: is Primogeniture better than elective monarch? The Roman Empire guide in the wiki seemed to suggest that it probably was, sorta, but I can see possible problems in that if I don't hand out all the duchies I get a malus.



Forth: Merchant republics. I currently have one in Venice (which is fairly easily controlable, since the duchy is just that one county); do I want any more, aside from the other obvious one county-potential in Genoa (when I take that), since I can't viceroyalty them?

First: About Rome: if the Pope went out of his way to spam all temples don't bother. Not worth it. If it still has 2-3 empty slots, up to you, tech can be brought up quicky. And yeah, you are doing it right by holding onto only castles.

Second: look at a de jure duchy, give all counties to different counts, promote one count to duke. If you start to run ouf of vassal limit give him 2 duchies, or 3. with imperial administration you can revoke duchies for free anyway. Just take care he isn't able to form a kingdom. (more than 50% of de jure kingdom lands and 2 duchies held are the criteria)

Third: Primo is better for byzantines, thanks to the born in the purple stuff. If your firstborn heir sucks, then:
1. He is not born in the purple, and you don't have any born in the purple son: Award despot honorary title to the heir of your choice.
2. He is not born in the purple, and you have born in the purple son, but he sucks: check, who will be better. If the not BITP son award him the despot. If there are other BITP who would be better:
a: award the despot to the not BITP
b: order all BITP son who are not suitable and not married to take wows. If they are married excommunicate and blind them.
c. revoke the despot from the not BITP
d. you have now the heir you want
3. You only have BITP sons: you gotta excommunicate-blind/castrate the unwanted ones.

Fourth: yeah you do want more, more cash is always nice. I pick them from smaller de jure kingdoms so they will be useful much much later when all my vassals are kings and they won't get declared by their de jure kings. Having Genoa would be tricky if you hand out Kingdom of Italy to someone since he will keep attacking it....
Suitable kingdoms for this (their de jure capital is on coast): Taurica, Britanny, Galicia, Wales, Denmark. Note that only 10% of your territory can be made into vassal republics, look at how many counties you have and do a quick math.

 

[scelestus13]

1) Constantinople. Unique walls, higher tech (assuming you've been investing there), no temple spam from Pope.
2) Essentially archdukes. Look at vassals by levy size and consolidate weak, adjacent duchies.
3) Elective. Unless I missed this in a patch, children can still be BITP. You get opinion bonus and easier time picking heir (especially if not one of your children).
4) As many as you can for the $$. Spread them out so they can make nice, continues trade networks. Give them smallest duchies possible (no kingdoms) to get as many merchant republics as possible.