Byzantium in 1.5, is it meant to be like this?

[Lilltiger]

In earlier patches one could go to war against Albania and vassalize them, take over the war, and then negotiate pace, like in 1.4 one had to give up Albania and Athens to broker truce. But in 1.5 one does not even get the choice to release those vassals, and thous impossible to negotiate peace.

Is this done with intention, some special anti-Byzantium mechanics, or is it a bug?
It looks like a bug because the UI option to release a nation is grayed out, does anyone know for sure?

 

[Descartes]

Typically intentional! The anti-Byzantium conspiracy is widespread. Sounds weird by the way.

 

[Olafmikli]

It seems like every patch specifically targets player strategies for Byzantium.

 

[milkan]

Byzantium needs to die!

Seriously though the mechanic seems to be independent of Byzantium and occurs in all similar cases.

 

[Lilltiger]

Well not really, but small changes for others affects Byzantium a lot, but the strange thing with this is that the option to give up vassals is grayed out in the UI wich is why I think it's a bug. If it was something to prevent Byz they should have just balanced so that Ottomans wouldn't accept the offer to do it, not prevent you from trying to do it.

 

[Lilltiger]

milkan: Do you know if it's an intended change or not, I did not find the things in the patch notes that would explain it.

 

[RegulasFade]

This mostly just means you won't get Albania, and the lack of truce means they could randomly attack you early. Otherwise you can still conquer Bos/Serb/Wall as normal.

 

[Lilltiger]

Not "Randomly" on Hard, Historical, AI Bonus he always attacks without the truce, at least he did pre 1.5. In 1.4 you wouldent get albania, you would have to give up both Albania and Athens just to get the truce, because it's the truce one needs to survive.
Maybe there is another way now, but that still does not explain why the option is grayed out.

 

[TheBloke]

I cannot see any sign that this is an intended change, and have raised a bug report for it: [h=1][1.5.0] Inheriting war does not allow Offer Tribute Cancel Vassal or Release Nation[/h]
It doesn't make sense to me that it would be intended, as three Peace Treaty options are disabled - Return Core, Cancel Vassal and Release Nation. I can't see any logic in disabling all of those just because you inherited a vassal war. If it blocked you just from cancelling the vassal you just took, that would make some sense; but it blocks you from cancelling any vassal, including ones you already had, plus the other two options. It means that if you inherit a vassal's war that you didn't expect, or that you find you can't win, you could be in serious trouble - you have far fewer options to offer your attacker, and might end up losing half your territory.

 

[RegulasFade]

Not "Randomly" on Hard, Historical, AI Bonus he always attacks without the truce, at least he did pre 1.5. In 1.4 you wouldent get albania, you would have to give up both Albania and Athens just to get the truce, because it's the truce one needs to survive.
Maybe there is another way now, but that still does not explain why the option is grayed out.

In 1.4 Ironman I frequently was able to avoid any wars from Ottomans without a truce for the first few decades. I did always ally Poland as quick as possible? and this is including when Constantinople is their current mission. They would occasionally attack me early but it wasn't frequent (maybe 1/7-8 starts, it's Ironman so I did have to try a lot). After that just use cheap tactics to truce (like warring Algiers who won't care about you and peace out for 12 gold).

Also by get albania I mean that the ottomans get it now whereas before it remained independent and eventually conquerable.

 

[DSwann]

I never understood the need to offer a peace deal to cancel vassals. I always had success of them accepting a concede to defeat offer - the key being to empty your treasury beforehand.

 

[TheBloke]

I never understood the need to offer a peace deal to cancel vassals. I always had success of them accepting a concede to defeat offer - the key being to empty your treasury beforehand.

In the case of the Byzantium strategy, I believe vassalising Albania is done purely to inject yourself into the war with Ottomans and then allow you to exit out of it - and thus get a truce - at basically no cost, i.e. giving up a vassal that you only just took. You do that because if you don't, Ottomans will DOW you and destroy you because you'll have nothing to give them.

I suppose if you can get them to stop with just Concede Defeat, then that's good too. But I gather that in the standard strategy, one is only using Albania to get to war with Ottomans, and doesn't actually want to keep them using up a DipRel, so cancelling them is desirable.

In other situations I can't see much point going to war just to cancel vassals - like I've heard people as Venice DOWing Ottomans just so they can Offer Tribue: Cancel Vassal. I don't quite understand that as since 1.4 you can Cancel Vassal at fairly minimal cost, just -25 Prestige and (very) damaged relations with the ex-vassal.

 

[DSwann]

In the case of the Byzantium strategy, I believe vassalising Albania is done purely to inject yourself into the war with Ottomans and then allow you to exit out of it - and thus get a truce - at basically no cost, i.e. giving up a vassal that you only just took. You do that because if you don't, Ottomans will DOW you and destroy you because you'll have nothing to give them.

I suppose if you can get them to stop with just Concede Defeat, then that's good too. But I gather that in the standard strategy, one is only using Albania to get to war with Ottomans, and doesn't actually want to keep them using up a DipRel, so cancelling them is desirable.

In other situations I can't see much point going to war just to cancel vassals - like I've heard people as Venice DOWing Ottomans just so they can Offer Tribue: Cancel Vassal. I don't quite understand that as since 1.4 you can Cancel Vassal at fairly minimal cost, just -25 Prestige and (very) damaged relations with the ex-vassal.

In the standard strategy, you vassalize Albania and than use dishonored CTA against Wallachia and Serbia to vassalize Wallachia and Serbia. Without Albania as a vassal, access to Serbia and Wallachia just seems like a problem which is why I prefer the Concede to Defeat offer

 

[RobRoy3]

In the standard strategy, you vassalize Albania and than use dishonored CTA against Wallachia and Serbia to vassalize Wallachia and Serbia. Without Albania as a vassal, access to Serbia and Wallachia just seems like a problem which is why I prefer the Concede to Defeat offer

Indeed, this worked fine in 1.3.2. But did not work for me (or anyone else that I know of) as of 1.4. There was either a deliberate change to the AI to make them less willing to accept Concede Defeat, or the consequence of some other change. I'm sure that's why the OP is wondering if something was done deliberately here? or accidentally? or bug?

Incidentally, some people found that divesting the two small vassals worked out better for BYZ, leaving them diplo slots to continue on with Wallachia and other more attractive vassals (Dalmatia to Croatia?).

 

[Korashy]

You also get 5 fire 5 shock skanderberg

 

[EmperorTojo]

I am having difficulty understanding this. You are upset that Paradox removed a cheap tactic? (At least, in my opinion, it sounds pretty cheap. But to survive with Byzantium I guess you got to cheat a little bit.)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I am having difficulty understanding this. You are upset that Paradox removed a cheap tactic? (At least, in my opinion, it sounds pretty cheap. But to survive with Byzantium I guess you got to cheat a little bit.)

I am having difficulty understanding what rules are being broken with the opening. Perhaps you can elucidate that.

 

[TheBloke]

I am having difficulty understanding this. You are upset that Paradox removed a cheap tactic? (At least, in my opinion, it sounds pretty cheap. But to survive with Byzantium I guess you got to cheat a little bit.)

The current situation appears very much like a bug. It has impacted a Byzantium strategy, but I cannot believe that was intentional. Or if it was, the implementation is poor enough to be regarded as a bug.

When AnyNation vassalises a nation who was at war, AnyNation will inherit that war. AnyNation can then not offer either Return Core, Cancel Vassal or Release Nation as peace treaty items. Basically, half of its peace treaty options have gone.

So if AnyNation vassalises a nation and then inherits a war it didn't expect, or inherits a war it thinks it can win but then finds it cannot, it is in huge trouble; it can't use half of the standard peace treaty options to appease their enemies, and will probably lose half its territory.

This has to be a bug. If it was intentional, surely they would only disable Cancel Vassal at most - and even that would be a very poor implementation; the only method that would make any real sense is if you weren't allowed to Cancel the vassal you just made. That would serve to limit the Byzantium strategy, without also breaking many other situations which have nothing to do with this.

So yeah, I think it's just a bug, and I have raised it as such: [h=1][1.5.0] Inheriting war does not allow Offer Tribute Cancel Vassal or Release Nation[/h]

 

[EmperorTojo]

I am having difficulty understanding what rules are being broken with the opening. Perhaps you can elucidate that.

No rules, but it is still a cheap trick to avoid a war with Ottomans, isn't it?

 

[ceteris.paribus]

Seems like with every patch, they are making it harder and harder to play Byzantium rendering any walkthroughs in patches past useless. I guess they are trying to make Byz pro-player only nation.