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I have to agree and disagree.

I'm playing EEP Byzantium for a while not (currently into 1530 or so). It definitely has been a lot of fun, but I have found that all-in-all the events make Byzantium more powerful. There are a lot of events where you can take short-term pain (revolts or a loss of stability) for long-term gain (a gain of tax values or manpower).

A human player will almost always take the long-term gain, and can really become quite powerful.

BarristerBoy
 

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Originally posted by BarristerBoy
There are a lot of events where you can take short-term pain (revolts or a loss of stability) for long-term gain (a gain of tax values or manpower).

A human player will almost always take the long-term gain, and can really become quite powerful.
It would help a great deal if the best choice was action_a in these events. Since the events are fantasy, we don't have the historical choice to fall back on; thus we make the AI choose well. (On the other hand, AI Byzantium hardly ever ends up getting these events anyway.)

This dichotomy between short/long-term pain/gain seems to be the reason the AI does so poorly in general. The AI builds much larger armies and navies than a human in that situation would, and pays maintenance on them for decades; it builds trading posts instead of colonies; it concentrates on making the 200-ducat direct investment in technology instead of building tax collectors, chief judges, and manufactories.
 

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Originally posted by BarristerBoy
I have to agree and disagree.

I'm playing EEP Byzantium for a while not (currently into 1530 or so). It definitely has been a lot of fun, but I have found that all-in-all the events make Byzantium more powerful. There are a lot of events where you can take short-term pain (revolts or a loss of stability) for long-term gain (a gain of tax values or manpower).

A human player will almost always take the long-term gain, and can really become quite powerful.

BarristerBoy
I don't know, I kinda think that if you can beat the odds and defeat the Ottoman's than you should get some semi benaficial events. The four policy choices seem pretty balanced and realistic in there effect. I just restarted my game again a little further back and this time quickly settled with Super Venice giving them Wallachia until I can rebuild. It's 1560 now and they have lvl 13 land to my lvl 4 land and with max serfdom and low quality due to the Magnet events always comming at the wrong times I'm really no match for them especially since they are allied with Por, Fra, and Spa. Dosn't help that my inflations at 28%. Keep hoping for a deflation event but no luck so far. :eek:
 

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Hold On!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Guy who started this thread say something very stupid. Byzantium was on the way back to first nation status. In fact, it was Byzantine scholars and emigres that added fuel to the Renisance in the rest of Europe. The invasions of Tamerlane and various other nomad muslims had almost destoryed the Turk kingdoms at the beginning of the 15thCent. This gave the Romans breathing room even to talk regularly to the Western Latins.
 

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Re: Hold On!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Elias Tarfarius
The Guy who started this thread say something very stupid. Byzantium was on the way back to first nation status. In fact, it was Byzantine scholars and emigres that added fuel to the Renisance in the rest of Europe. The invasions of Tamerlane and various other nomad muslims had almost destoryed the Turk kingdoms at the beginning of the 15thCent. This gave the Romans breathing room even to talk regularly to the Western Latins.

Yes, that´s true. One thing the new EU2 has done, it has clearly raised interest in Byzantine history and that´s good...;)
 

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The Guy who started this thread say something very stupid. Byzantium was on the way back to first nation status. In fact, it was Byzantine scholars and emigres that added fuel to the Renisance in the rest of Europe. The invasions of Tamerlane and various other nomad muslims had almost destoryed the Turk kingdoms at the beginning of the 15thCent. This gave the Romans breathing room even to talk regularly to the Western Latins.

No. I don't think so. Tamerlane didn't quite get the job done. The Byzantines did their best to play the Turks off one another as best they could, but they were still very much on the brink of destruction. They basically, had no prime recruiting territories anymore and were suffering from depopulation. Their situation was extremely hazardous, and most of their survival owes to massive bribes. A "almost destroyed" Turk kingdom was still vastly superior to the Byzantine remnants. Perhaps if Tamerlane had stayed around for a bit longer...But he didn't. He left rather swiftly, considering.

I don't see how Byzantine scholars fleeing the Turks and having a slim influence on the Renaissance suggests they were nearing anything close to equal parity.

Perhaps they enjoyed a window of a couple years at best where their policy could have taken a more independent course (I.E, they could quibble among themselves for a while) but they did nothing about the Turk question. I'm sure if they could have, they would have.

All that aside,

I've played the Byzantine EEP fantasy events and found them fun. I just wish people would realize the Byzantines were doomed long before EUII. Perhaps if the Fourth Crusade never happened, they could have afforded to bribe a century or two more of existance ;)
 

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If fourth Crusade never happened then Byzantine is likely to survive for longer than 1453, after all Byz never recovered after Crusades and basically struggle for surival, only shadow of pre-1204. Thus, Byz would be much stronger than it had been in real history if there had been no Crusade. It was a huge different, not minor.
 

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First off, the Fourth Crusade was in the making for over a century. Constantinople had pissed off Venice one too many times. The fact the Roman Emperor didn't do anything about a massive crusader army right outside his city goes to show his stupidity. If it didn't happen, however, the world would not be the same. Fact is, no Fourth Crusade, you have Anatolia reconquered and a very happy Roman Empire. The balkan problems that existed post-1204 exist to this day because of that date. Before, there were no unity problems.

On to Tamerlane... Tamerlane could have done the job, but didn't. He shattered the Turkish nations, destroyed their army, killed a Sultan even, but never consolidated and never took further steps to bitchify his freshly won states. In the end, they all came back stronger than before, and the Romans were finished.

On to the whole Rabid West Goes Postal on Byzantium event, I don't see how this could happen. I mean, sure, if Byzantium went and sacked Rome a few times sure. But no Emperor would be that stupid. More likely is that a few would find themselves quite snug within the Roman sphere of influence, and a most others would be indifferent. Austria would be the largest problem for a resurgent Roman Empire, but even they would be smarter than to challenge Constantinople 1 on 1.

What I see would happen:

Italy would be a bit tense over it, but wouldn't torque their panties. Venice + Genoa were pretty nice to the Romans in their last days, and while the Romans might not be gracious enough to return the favor, they know better than to try and pull another 4th Crusade. Even the Pope himself almost went cactus on the Doge over that one.

France is too busy with England to care. England, likewise, is too busy with France to care.

After Spain appears, they are off in the new world bringing glory to Catholicism and Spain.

Austria, wary of the resurgent Orthodox power, would form a power bloc with Hungary + Bohemia and not pull any crap. More likely that Constantinople would make the first move, since it would be seen as more than evil for the Western Emperor to declare war on the Eastern. Of course, the Eastern Emperor has no such graces towards Roman "unity", nor does he have the liability of hundreds of minor states to keep content to remain on his throne.

Poland wouldn't mind having the Romans back, since it keeps her southern border relatively quiet. An alliance of some sort isn't out of the question either, if for no other reason to counter the Austrian power bloc. Lithuania, long the vassal of Poland, would follow.

The vast expanse of the Russian plains would be happy to see their religion beating up infidels, so while the leaders of the states may not like Constantinople's Emperor, they couldn't afford not to support him. General discontent and revolts aren't on any leader's Top 10 'I Love' list.

Now if you still want to have an alliance against the Roman Empire, look to the east. The Islamic countries would hate the fact that their long-time smack-toy is now smacking them around, and would do some nasty things to the Romans. Persia never held any love for the Emperors in Constantinople, and nor did the Mameluks, Arabians, or Iraqis. They would all love to kick her rear, but the Shiite - Sunni relations would mean two alliances, and a war between the two over who has the right to kill the Romans.

So either way you look at it, you have more than one group of nations divided amongst themselves on what to do. Ryoken or whatever his name is is just whining because we get more attention than his precious French EEP. Funny thing is, last time I checked, there was no civil war in the EEP... Hmm...
 

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So much discussion and I it all boils down to the definition of two camps:

- the "install it or not as you please" folks, who are definitely practicing a 'live and let live philosophy'; and

- the "I don't want it and that means you can't have it either" folks. They're given the choice to install or not - that should do the trick, eh? personal decisions made personal - but that clearly will never satisfy them. In fact, they've made it very clear that the only thing that'll satisfy them is if they manage to *take away your ability to make the decision for yourself*.

Really, now, if you don't like the 'fantasy' events then don't install them. You have that option. Whining that others also have the option and might choose differently than you says something rather nasty about your personal character and what you think about your right to dictate orders to those around you.

Criticizing specific events for specific reasons is one thing, but this thread has nothing to do with specific criticisms. Playing the wounded 'free-speecher' is rather ironic given the argument.

And if worse comes to worse and you just can't abide the thought of even the option existing, you can always edit and fork the files. Do something constructive rather than complain that others have choices that you might not like.

Max
 

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Originally posted by maxpublic
So much discussion and I it all boils down to the definition of two camps:

- the "install it or not as you please" folks, who are definitely practicing a 'live and let live philosophy'; and

- the "I don't want it and that means you can't have it either" folks. They're given the choice to install or not - that should do the trick, eh? personal decisions made personal - but that clearly will never satisfy them. In fact, they've made it very clear that the only thing that'll satisfy them is if they manage to *take away your ability to make the decision for yourself*.

Really, now, if you don't like the 'fantasy' events then don't install them. You have that option. Whining that others also have the option and might choose differently than you says something rather nasty about your personal character and what you think about your right to dictate orders to those around you.

Criticizing specific events for specific reasons is one thing, but this thread has nothing to do with specific criticisms. Playing the wounded 'free-speecher' is rather ironic given the argument.

And if worse comes to worse and you just can't abide the thought of even the option existing, you can always edit and fork the files. Do something constructive rather than complain that others have choices that you might not like.

Max

I'm somewhat appalled that you're still not getting the point. At the cost of repeating myself yet again, the point is not that no-one else should be able to have the fantasy events, but rather whether they should be done under a seprate project or under the EEP. Their inclusion in the EEP makes several things more difficult and affects the way the project works. On the other hand it brings more people into the project. So the choice is do you make the project more streamlined and easier to manage etc. at the cost of excluding people, or do you add the difficulties that come along with the fantasy events. It is certainly NOT about dictating to others about what they can do with their copy of the game.
There are reasonable arguments for going either route. But don't pretend that that decision hasn't been made or that it doesn't have disadvantages.
 

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Originally posted by Isaac Brock


I'm somewhat appalled that you're still not getting the point. At the cost of repeating myself yet again, the point is not that no-one else should be able to have the fantasy events, but rather whether they should be done under a seprate project or under the EEP. Their inclusion in the EEP makes several things more difficult and affects the way the project works. On the other hand it brings more people into the project. So the choice is do you make the project more streamlined and easier to manage etc. at the cost of excluding people, or do you add the difficulties that come along with the fantasy events. It is certainly NOT about dictating to others about what they can do with their copy of the game.
There are reasonable arguments for going either route. But don't pretend that that decision hasn't been made or that it doesn't have disadvantages.

Well I for one vote for keeping the fantasy events in the EEP since they broaden the game for me. I actually don't see how they make things that much more difficult since the framework for implementing them seems to have been done already. I know that it is difficult to find a balance for nonhistorical events to not ruin how the game is played but that should be up to the event writers to create balanced playability , Right? Anyway I maybe am missing some of the other difficulties of Fantasy events but in my opinion they make the game more fun so they should stay.:)
 

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Originally posted by Isaac Brock


I'm somewhat appalled that you're still not getting the point. At the cost of repeating myself yet again, the point is not that no-one else should be able to have the fantasy events, but rather whether they should be done under a seprate project or under the EEP. Their inclusion in the EEP makes several things more difficult and affects the way the project works. On the other hand it brings more people into the project. So the choice is do you make the project more streamlined and easier to manage etc. at the cost of excluding people, or do you add the difficulties that come along with the fantasy events. It is certainly NOT about dictating to others about what they can do with their copy of the game.
There are reasonable arguments for going either route. But don't pretend that that decision hasn't been made or that it doesn't have disadvantages.

- they're already being done in the EEP. Fork it if this bothers you. It's really that simple and that painfully obvious.

- precisely what things are made more difficult? Be specific. The folks doing the actual work of creating the files don't seem to be complaining. So why are you?

- there are no "added difficulties" that "come along with the fantasy events". You have the option of not installing them. That's the end of a player's involvement. It doesn't get any easier than this.

There are no reasonable arguments for eliminating the fantasy elements. You can install them or not install them; as a player the option to 'not install' is exactly the same as not getting the fantasy events in the first place. As a designer you know what the project entails prior to signing on; bitching after the fact is immature, especially when (if you can manage to get off your lazy ass) you can fork the whole thing at any time.

Your claims are specious. It is about control and telling people what to do and limiting the options that others might have. *You*, as a player, already have the option to not install the fantasy events and that's the same thing as as having an EEP that doesn't include them. For *you*, as a player, the EEP install is so brain-dead even the terminally clueless have no business getting their knickers in a bunch. So the only reason to argue against fantasy elements is to eliminate the choice *of other people*, - SINCE YOU ALREADY HAVE THE CHOICE TO DO IT FOR YOURSELF.

Max
 

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Ooops, sorry, I got into the wrong thread by mistake. This would be the Iconoclast-Iconodule controversy thread, right?;)
 

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my 2 denarii

Hi all,

This post was just getting so long and pointless i couldn't resist increasing it's size to gargantuan proportions.

Byzantine events...
I agree with the Byzantine bashers that Byzantium was already dead and no one had bothered to tell the emporer yet. Largely for reasons no one knows about or are ignoring for some reason.

However,

I agree with the Byzantine lovers that the new events pre 1453 make the game (rightfully) more complex for the Byzantines and the post 1453 events are well thought out and balanced even by my pedantic (or pissy, just ask some of the EU1 people) standards. Good job guys.

For those of you who might not know much Byzantine history they had 2 problems no one has brought up here which i believe deserve mention.

The most basic was trade. Byzantium couldn't. It was that simple. By 1419 constantly faced with expenses they couldn't cover, the emporers had bargained away virtually all of their native trading rights. Most cargo had to be bought through Venetian or Genoese merchants. Often cargo had to be bought in Pera with massive trrifs for non Genoese. Cargo had to be carried on Venetian or Genoese vessels. In short the Byzantines needed money to break the economic shackles placed on them but could not raise money because of those shackles. This is basically the same position the Portugese ended up in with the English. You want to buy Port? come to the English merchant. And the English Ship. And the English tarriff.

The second problem the Byzantines faced was older and a bit more complex. Most westerners know at least a little about monasticism in the Catholic west. Well, in the Byzantine empire it was much more widespread. I wish i had some of my sources in front of me now, but i remember figures during the 1200's of some provinces having half of their land controlled by monasteries.

You say "what is the problem?" well, it was difficult to tax monasteries for one thing, also monasteries are inefficiant farm land; they tend to be purely subsistence because instead of working in the fields all day the brothers would work an hour in the fields and then pray then an hour in the fields and pray some more. This was followed by copying old manuscripts that no one bothered to try to understand, just copy. Then an hour in the fields and then more prayer. blah blah blah.

Not an efficiant system at all.

The manpower in these Monastic estates was unavailable for the army which often lost half of their potential manpower that way. No, 50% of the people were not monks, but, 50% were monks, lay brothers, hired servants etc that were all protected by charter from army service.

These were some of the problems Byzantium was suffering from in 1419.

--------------------------------------------

Someone (a Greek, i think, by his location)
made some rather poorly thought out comments about Kamul Ataturk in an earlier post. Well, one, keep your prejudices off this board. Two, learn something of history before you open your mouth for that kind of spew.
I am neither a Turk nor a Greek although i have spent time in both countries. I know several Turks who would say several modern Greek leaders are
"The greatest Butchers of the Turkish prople ever"

Does that make it any more or less true than what you stated? no, it does not. what happened between 1919 and 1922 was as well handled as the time and prejudices would allow. Remember 350,000 Turks were expelled rather forcibly from Greece during this Period. The 1m Armenians were slaughtered under Enver Pashas orders in 1915-16. You might want to learn what Ataturks position in the Turkish government was in 1915; answer:none.
Mustapha Kemal was attache to Bulgaria briefly then commanded the army corps defending Gallipoli.
He had no political power in the triumvirate of Enver Pasha. Enver basically couldn't stand him largely due to Mustapha's father's job.

Mustapha Kemal, like any other head of state, does not make every decision nor does he tell everyone else what to do. Often for a head of state it is the other way around. Mustapha was merely an army commander in 1919 and was not head of state till 1923. I obviously was not in Mustapha's mind during this period but i have read both his and his fathers letters and i believe he tried his best to make the expulsion of the greeks as civil as possible.
Also, even though Greece did not truely ever join the allies in WW1 in the post war period they were 'given' a large portion of Turkey. The Greek army was not forced out of Turkey until 1922.
Ataturks faction kept the reactionary general staff from joining Germany in WW2.

Seems like a guy trying to do the best he can under the circumstances to me. Do you think you should do a bit more reading?

Or are you you one of those nationalistic idiots who thinks whatever his country does is all sweetness and light while all the neigbors are the devil incarnate?

Michael
 

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Re: my 2 denarii

Originally posted by Lycortas2
Or are you you one of those nationalistic idiots who thinks whatever his country does is all sweetness and light while all the neigbors are the devil incarnate?

Michael

Very interesting post; thank you. One thing I will say, is that without "nationalistic idiots" history wouldn't be half as interesting as it is with them ;)
 
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