Byzantium army..continued

[unmerged(4953)]

Iam not quite sure why BiB closed the thread...but

*sigh* Ok, let me put it this way. Was the Byzantine army of the time foreign? No. In the time, the Byzantine army was around 5-6 thousand strong and they were whatever could be called up from Constantinople.

In-correct. Only 20% of their army was Greek. 80% of them were Mercenary

The army was The Venetians and Genoans defended when they had to with what they had, but the Byzantines never "hired" them. They were sent by the Pope. The age of Byzantine mercenaries ended when they couldn't afford them anymore, and that was a little while before this game starts.

Wrong again. The Byzantines could always afford money, they simply would sell off religious relics and such.

Now since the Byzantines suddenly had to field their own army, it had to be somewhat advanced to send the Turks screaming for their mothers quite a few times in the 1453 siege. Only the lack of sleep kept the Byzantines from winning that battle, and the death of the Genoese commander didn't help of course.

The lack of sleep and the fact that were only 500 greeks, behind huge walls and backed up by 2000 foreigners.

Thus the Byzantines had to have had somewhat of a better army. Period. Considering the Land Walls weren't much aid, because they were constantly being pulverized by the Sultan's monster 27 foot cannon, they definately had a better army.

No, they 'definatly' did not have a better army. There is no evidance that the 500 Greeks somehow outperformed the 2000 Italian mercenaries.

Now the way it is right now, the Orthodox tech doesn't get better by any real degree than the Muslim till after 1453. That's bad for the Byzantines, not for other Orthodox nations who's technology wasn't any better for a while. Thus the Byzantines should be in the latin tech group, to show they were infact still advanced over the Ottomans.

Byzantium used Orthodox nations as mercanries. Explain to me why they would higher 'primitive hordes' ?

 

[unmerged(530)]

The number of Greeks fighting at the siege of Constantinople was 5,000, not 500.

The 2,000 Italians were funded by Venice, the Pope, Giovanni Guistiani Longo, A Genoese nobleman, and a nobleman from Aragon, I forget his name. The Byzantines did not hire them.

 

[celedhring]

Originally posted by yannelis69
The number of Greeks fighting at the siege of Constantinople was 5,000, not 500.

The 2,000 Italians were funded by Venice, the Pope, Giovanni Guistiani Longo, A Genoese nobleman, and a nobleman from Aragon, I forget his name. The Byzantines did not hire them.

Wasn't also there a rival Ottoman prince helping the Byzantines?

 

[unmerged(4990)]

I don't think so.

And man where did you get your information!!

500 Greeks?!

And they couldn't afford money, they had already sold off the Imperial Diadem, and the Church wouldn't tolerate the selling of any more relics.

I think it was more like 80% Greek and 20% Foreign, NOT mercenary. A mercenary is someone you hire. The foreigners in the city joined the army out of respect for the Empire or to save their own businesses and families.

And BiB do not close this thread. I like to argue about these things

 

[unmerged(4990)]

Oh and the Greeks outpreformed the Italians in almost every aspect. The Greeks were fighting for their home on top of their faith. The Italians were only fighting because the Pope said it was holy. Once again, your facts are messed up...

 

[Idiotboy]

Uh, not this again. Go ahead Constantine show him who he is dealing with.

 

[unmerged(4990)]

He doesn't know what he got himself into.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Definitely. The more i read your post, the more i'm beginning to have an impression that Byzantines were some kind of uber-mensch

 

[Demetrios]

There was a rival Ottoman prince on the Byzantine side, Prince Orhan. He commanded only a handful of Turks during the final seige, however...

 

[unmerged(4953)]

The number of Greeks fighting at the siege of Constantinople was 5,000, not 500.

Then I guees George Ostrogorsky disagrees with you. Now gee, who am I gona trust. A greek nationalist/Byzantine fan or a German expert on Byzantium..gee wiz

And man where did you get your information!!

History of the Byzantine State George Ostrogorsky.
Where do you get your info from ? Random numbers you make up ?

The foreigners in the city joined the army out of respect for the Empire or to save their own businesses and families.

The Italians were only fighting because the Pope said it was holy

Its amazing how you manage to contra-dict yourself in two posts, so were they fighting out of 'respect' to a City State their countrymen burned down 200 years ago or were they fighting it because the Pope said it was 'holy' or even more correctly, because they were paid.

Oh and the Greeks outpreformed the Italians in almost every aspect

Evidence to this ?

 

[unmerged(4990)]

1) I did not contradict myself. The foreigners were not Venetian or Genoese, they were just foreigners who happened to reside in Constantinople at the time.

I am not greek. I am not a greek nationalist either. Infact I am british. But you need to reread that book, because that 500 figure doesn't work unless you are referring to the period right before the final attack.

Frankly I take insult to your saying I pulled the numbers from the sky. Can we keep this civilized? I have no reason to lie when I have history on my side.

The Italians fled when their leader died. The Greeks fought on when their Emperor died...

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by Constantine XI
I am not greek. I am not a greek nationalist either.

Yes, the most amazing characteristic of you is that you are Byzantine nationalistI still find it hard to believe
(please, no offense. I don't mind your affection to Byzantium, as long as you won't make them super-state through events you are working at,and those events somehow will find themselves in some bigger pack)

 

[unmerged(4990)]

hehe Byzantine Nationalist, no. Roman nationalist.. That's the right term.

And no, even I couldn't defend an outrageous event. I know the line between fantasy and reality. The fact is, all of the events suggested could be triggered if the human managed to reach a certain point.

(and I defend the idea it should be hard to get to that point.) I just don't like people telling me outrageous statements about an empire I know so much about...

 

[Nikolai II]

Originally posted by ZheShiWO
History of the Byzantine State George Ostrogorsky.
Where do you get your info from ? Random numbers you make up ?

Well, maybe George is making them up? Or maybe George only counted the armed forces. My figures are 5000 indigenous fighters and about 2000 foreigners. The indigenous of course are every able-bodied man or monk in this case. It is very possible that only 500 of these were soldiers, I don't know.
I can sadly not quote verbatim from books as books don't like the miliue I am working in, but the author points out that these figures (those I mentioned) are taken from the census made by the emperor when siege commenced to see what he had to work with.

Who should I trust, George O. or the Emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire?

 

[unmerged(4990)]

That would be me, good sir.

 

[unmerged(530)]

hmmm... excellent Italian performance... when Giovanni Guistianni got hit by a culverin bolt, he started whining like a sissy and ordered the retreat, and they started bolting for their ships. This elft a gaping hole in the cities defenses, causing the city to fall.

Thread edited for content--- Dark Knight

 

[unmerged(1909)]

If I can interject a related question here to the Byzantinophiles here on the forum: What would you guys recommend as a good, detailed history of this period of Byzantine history? EU2, the controversies on this forum, have definitely increased my desire to know more.

And a related question on my related question: What do you guys think of Gibbon as a source? I happen to have a dusty copy on hand, and once you get the hang of his 18th century syntax, it does make for entertaining reading! I was just wondering what you thought of him as as far as accuracy goes.

Thanks!

 

[unmerged(6603)]

However, the city was divided by bitter religious strife. This had prevented Constantine from obtaining the help he needed from the Pope, although some token vital supplies were reportedly en route. At one time, the population of Constantinople had been nearly a million souls. Now it had dwindled to barely 100,000. Constantine had been appalled to learn that in all the city there were not quite 5,000 Greeks of military age. Fortunately there were some 2,000 foreign troops, most of them Genoese and Venetians - who regarded each other as enemies.


http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5990/byzantine/byzantine01.html

 

[unmerged(4953)]

I did not contradict myself. The foreigners were not Venetian or Genoese, they were just foreigners who happened to reside in Constantinople at the time.

You contradicter yourself in stating that first they fought because they respected the Empire. Then you said they fought only cuz the Pope told them to.
And yes, the foreigners were Genoese.

But you need to reread that book, because that 500 figure doesn't work unless you are referring to the period right before the final attack.

I re-read it 10 times just now. 500 greeks, 2000 mercenaries.

I have no reason to lie when I have history on my side.

You dont have 'history' on your side. You dont even have a source.

The Italians fled when their leader died. The Greeks fought on when their Emperor died...

How could they flee ? The city was surrounded on both sides, the sea was cut of by the Turkish fleet. They fought on just like the Greeks.

Well, maybe George is making them up?

The guy has a Phd in History. Why hell, he must be making it up. Anything not fitting a greek or a byzantines fans of 'history' must be pure heretical lies.

Or maybe George only counted the armed forces. My figures are 5000 indigenous fighters and about 2000 foreigners. The indigenous of course are every able-bodied man or monk in this case.

Fine. Lets use your number. Almost half of the troops present in Constantinople were Italian mercenaries.

Who should I trust, George O. or the Emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire?

The Eastern Roman Empire who was about to face 10 to 1 odds and needed every kind of psycological boost or a German historian who has no opinions on Greeks or Turks ? Gee wiz.

when Giovanni Guistianni got hit by a culverin bolt, he started whining like a sissy and ordered the retreat, and the wops started bolting for their ships. This elft a gaping hole in the cities defenses, causing the city to fall.

1) Whats your source that he 'started to whine like a sissy'.
And even if he did, wouldnt you ? Or are greeks impervious to pain ?
2) Why the racial slur ? Are you mad that in the darkest hour of the last great greek state there were foreigners helping you out ?
3) Bolting to their ships ? How could they bolt to the ships if the Turks were blockading Constantinople ?!
4) The city fell because the Greeks and Italians faced 10-1 odds. Not because the 'wops bolted like sissys to their ships'

 

[unmerged(6603)]

Reports are hundred or so captured... not to mention another 100 random soldiers who we executed throughout the seige as examples... thats 200 there. another few hundred actually escaped...


5,000 it is... and it was unfortunate the events. I didn't know the full history until i read a few articals tonight on it... anyone know where i could get a book on it, it is really fascinating.