Byzantines overpowered?

[NezzeOne]

If not Manzikert, the same thing would have happened in the next battle, or the one after it. Besides this, it's irrelevant to the point that the levies of Byzantium are probably too high. They should not be able to overpower the Turks in Anatolia at game start in 1187 with almost double their troops.

"As the below table demonstrates, the population of Byzantium did not fall as a result of Seljuq acquisitions; manpower was still as readily available in 1143 as in 1025. In fact, Western Asia Minor and Greece experienced a population growth on an unprecedented scale, thanks in part due to the trade of the Italian city states of Venice and Genoa and also due to the influx of Greek refugees fleeing the Seljuq Turks.[45] Manuel Komnenos' first expedition to Konya saw the entire Greek population of Philomelion evacuated and settled west. However, the efficiency and resources needed to raise large armies had dwindled somewhat, as can be seen by John and Manuel's failure to create a national army.

Year Population Soldiers Area
1025 12,000,000 250,000 Byzantine Empire
1143 10,000,000 80,000 Byzantine Empire
1204 9,000,000 30,000+ Byzantine Empire
1281 5,000,000 20,000 Byzantine Empire[46]"

And if we're talking strictly from the viewpoint of game balance, Byzantium seems to be okay in the hands of the AI. It's hit-or-miss.

 

[AndreasPhokas]

the AI is hit or miss........it depends on the jihad, if its in anatolia or if the fatimids invade greece the empire is usually boned. If not the AI can usually keep it together

 

[grumphie]

if anything, fatamids invading greece in 1070 is OP. fatamids were in HUGE decline, and in the game they take over the heartlands of one of the most powerfull nations of the world in the blink of an eye.

i agree that the situetion should be tweaked, but if anything, nerf byzantines in their gains into the balkans(as croatia is now commenly destroyed before by 1150) and other area's(sicily and italy should offer hefty resitance to the byzantines. historically, they made only some very minor gains there from 1066 onwards). at the seljuk front, things should slow down. its either complete and utter destruction in a few decades or they beat of the seljuks and push back into regions they lost. it should imo be a bit more declinyin the battle with the seljuks.

 

[NezzeOne]

if anything, fatamids invading greece in 1070 is OP. fatamids were in HUGE decline, and in the game they take over the heartlands of one of the most powerfull nations of the world in the blink of an eye.

i agree that the situetion should be tweaked, but if anything, nerf byzantines in their gains into the balkans(as croatia is now commenly destroyed before by 1150) and other area's(sicily and italy should offer hefty resitance to the byzantines. historically, they made only some very minor gains there from 1066 onwards). at the seljuk front, things should slow down. its either complete and utter destruction in a few decades or they beat of the seljuks and push back into regions they lost. it should imo be a bit more declinyin the battle with the seljuks.

Agreed with this. In 1.07b, it looks like Paradox disabled Jihads before the 1180s -- which is -perfect- for Byzantium. Now they just need to tweak the Imperial Reconquest CB so that, if being used by Byzantium, only applies to its de jure territory.

 

[phbbt107]

Interestingly enough, in my first game ever as an ERE duke (LoR retail, before the 1.07b patch to jihad), the ERE had a Manzikert moment very close to the actual time the real Manzikert happened. The emperor was captured during a battle against the Fatimid Jihad against Anatolia, leading to the ERE's instant loss of Anatolia. The Fatimids then followed up with an invasion of Greece and before 1100, all of the Byzantine Empire was under Fatimid control excepting Bulgaria. Alas, I ended my game there.

 

[Captain Frye]

Alexios didn't have the army, but he had his brain. So he let the crusaders do the dirty job for him. I doubt that the byzantine army was 2x stronger than the seljuk army in 1081.

 

[grumphie]

it wasnt the slejuk army, it was the independent sultanate of rum, which didnt held peria and almost the enitre levant but only anatolai and large oarts of armenia.

 

[Hackworthy]

historically byzantines were crippled forever after battle of manzikert and idea they could create army to reconquer areas in sultanate of rum is preposterous

You know absolutely nothing about Byzantium. Obviously. And I think that's pretty typical of people who make these "AAAAAAHHH OP BLAHBLAH NERF PLOX!" arguments. They have no idea what they're talking about.

 

[Tsungun]

Wow this is the first time someone has brought this up OP. You're very perceptive to be the only one to know this and create this thread. They are only really overpowered if the player plays as them and that's because you will likely survive the initial Seljuk invasion and the inevitable Fatimid jihad of Greece and have much of your core territory still intact.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

historically byzantines were crippled forever after battle of manzikert and idea they could create army to reconquer areas in sultanate of rum is preposterous

Actually it was the 4th Crusade, and the infighting and fighting against the Latins after that which crippled the ERE.

 

[drususnero]

Overpowered or not depends on the starting point.

I played "The Alexiade" (1081) and I must fight with 20.000 (including mercenaries and my foreign ally) against 50.000 Muslims in Asia minor. Because I am a clever human and my opponent is a stupid AI, "Byzantines are overpowered" - aren't they?

 

[Oktobermensch]

While it can be claimed that Byzzies are OP, almost any kingdom is OP in the hands of a player. I was able to defeat Mongols as Poland or create hispania as Navarra. Piece of cake, as most players will attest. its simpyl the nature of the game. Also, you are forgetting the influence of factions and luck that can affect your emperor and where you have stong empire in one year, the next one can be disastrous because your vassals turned on you or you had a dynastic change.

The game was not up for byzzies after Manzikert, just as proven in history by Manuel and others. Constantinople certainly had the resources to keep on fighting. To say that a single factor changed the entire history is to ignore everything else.

 

[unmerged(48470)]

In my games Byzantium lost all Syria, and Armenia and Anatolia(including my dukedom of Atiochia) because busy figthing civil wars.
Now we are on the rise again because Fatimides are busy figthing themselves.