Byzantine unit DLC just curious

[unmerged(320188)]

Was the ax really the primary weapon of the Byzantine army then?

I just think ax is really a primitive weapon mainly used to cut woods though it can be used to wage battle with.
But it's certainly not a graceful weapon especially not one I thought would be wielded by the greatest Christian empire the world ever saw post Roman domination.

 

[Sossen]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6avw5dg051ruo07wo1_1280.jpg

 

[unmerged(320188)]

Hmm seems from the picture they had round shield. They awfully look like the Viking.

 

[Sossen]

O-hoho but you see, that's where you are spot on mate. Google the varangian guard.

 

[unmerged(320188)]

Ah I see now why they carry their two handed ax, a not so elegant weapon of choice for an empire.

I wonder what other units use as their primary weapon aside the elite Varangian guard.

 

[riknap]

Ah I see now why they carry their two handed ax, a not so elegant weapon of choice for an empire.

I wonder what other units use as their primary weapon aside the elite Varangian guard.

I'd love to say they use javelins before charging with daggers while supported with greek fire flame throwers, but... :wub:

 

[AndreasPhokas]

i always pictured them having more sword base infantry.......now those greek flamethrowers, i like that idea!

 

[unmerged(320188)]

I'd love to say they use javelins before charging with daggers while supported with greek fire flame throwers, but... :wub:

Javelins? That's so Roman and so old. . Maybe when Roman themed CK2 equivalent is out

i always pictured them having more sword base infantry.......now those greek flamethrowers, i like that idea!

Yeah I always pictured them to be wielding mainly swords though the armor could be a little more eastern looking.

The thing is the Varangian guards came from the Nords and thus wielded the two handed axe. They were the elite personal guardsmen of the emperor not sure if they were available in enough numbers to be the bulk or portion of the bulk of the army thus while Varangian guards may be a Byzantine unit they may not be quite representative to represent Byzantine army.

Varangian guard may be the equivalent Roman praetorian, the Roman emperor personal guards which didn't participate in battles...until opportunity presented themselves and gave them the power to expand. But at least praetorians look so...Roman while the Varangian guards look a bit awkward with their two handed ax(Norse's preferred battle weapon) though they dress accordingly in game(to the Byzantine culture)

 

[Alerias]

Ah I see now why they carry their two handed ax, a not so elegant weapon of choice for an empire.

I wonder what other units use as their primary weapon aside the elite Varangian guard.

You dont forge empires by using thinner and shinier rapiers than the other guys. You want to slice their faces off and bash in their skulls at the same time.

Axes are fine.

 

[Kanin_Usagi]

The thing is the Varangian guards came from the Nords and thus wielded the two handed axe. They were the elite personal guardsmen of the emperor not sure if they were available in enough numbers to be the bulk or portion of the bulk of the army thus while Varangian guards may be a Byzantine unit they may not be quite representative to represent Byzantine army.

Varangian guard may be the equivalent Roman praetorian, the Roman emperor personal guards which didn't participate in battles...until opportunity presented themselves and gave them the power to expand. But at least praetorians look so...Roman while the Varangian guards look a bit awkward with their two handed ax(Norse's preferred battle weapon) though they dress accordingly in game(to the Byzantine culture)

If I recall correctly, the Varangians started out as some mercenaries the Empire hired during so-and-so war, and the Emperor was so impressed that he told them to go back home and bring as many back as they could. I think, at their height, the Varangian Guard had close to ten thousand men. So definitely a sizeable force, and definitely one that participated in wars. But they are similar to the Praetorians in that they had a hand in selecting Emperors several different times.

 

[unmerged(320188)]

If I recall correctly, the Varangians started out as some mercenaries the Empire hired during so-and-so war, and the Emperor was so impressed that he told them to go back home and bring as many back as they could. I think, at their height, the Varangian Guard had close to ten thousand men. So definitely a sizeable force, and definitely one that participated in wars. But they are similar to the Praetorians in that they had a hand in selecting Emperors several different times.

Ah if they numbered in thousands they definitely can represent Byzantine force but yeah they have that foreign impression on them thanks to that two handed axe which made them a bit awkward/ out of place.

 

[Lando_Viggo]

Was the ax really the primary weapon of the Byzantine army then?

I just think ax is really a primitive weapon mainly used to cut woods though it can be used to wage battle with.
But it's certainly not a graceful weapon especially not one I thought would be wielded by the greatest Christian empire the world ever saw post Roman domination.

Yo Mighty heart! The graphics guy behind that particular unit here! Nice of you to notice, and it is in fact exacty as "Sossen" says, the Heavy Infantry of the byzantines pays tribute to the Vangarian guard, by wielding an axe and having similiar armor and gear. When designing units for CK2, you have to take in a lot of different gears, colors, armors, weapons etc, and make one generic version combining many different stages and cultures, thus, we add a little bit of everything.

We really liked the viking mercenaries, and though it appropiate for them to represent the heavy infantry, since they appear to have been considered elite troops of some sort accoridng to the sources we used : )

Hope that clearifies a couple of things for you

 

[unmerged(320188)]

Yo Mighty heart! The graphics guy behind that particular unit here! Nice of you to notice, and it is in fact exacty as "Sossen" says, the Heavy Infantry of the byzantines pays tribute to the Vangarian guard, by wielding an axe and having similiar armor and gear. When designing units for CK2, you have to take in a lot of different gears, colors, armors, weapons etc, and make one generic version combining many different stages and cultures, thus, we add a little bit of everything.

We really liked the viking mercenaries, and though it appropiate for them to represent the heavy infantry, since they appear to have been considered elite troops of some sort accoridng to the sources we used : )

Hope that clearifies a couple of things for you

Hi Lando...hehehe I didn't realize that the Byzantine heavy infantry were actually Norsemen hence I found it odd that they wield axe which in my opinion a not so elegant weapon for an advance empire. All things explained yeah I now accept the fact that the Byzantine was employing 'Norse" mercenaries and making them the elite guardsmen for the Emperor and probably as elite fighting units as well(like your sources told).

Love the amor a lot. Excellent job on that. Love the model and the color. The red reminds me very much of the Roman red:happy:

Is there reason to choosing an Arab or Persian shield than a large round shield? Just curious because from the picture link on this thread it seemed they were portrayed carrying a large round shield. I absolutely do not know what sort of shield or shields they carried. Hehehe

Anyway these Varangian guards were probably very big fellas in general. I watched Ironclad the movie couple times the Norse leader with his two handed axe [Gulp] if I bumped into him in a dark alley at night I'd give that guy my wallet immediately axe or no axe. :laugh: He really teared apart the lone knights templar

Btw the heavy cavalry model is just insanely awesome too bad I have yet to see them too often in game.

It was too painful to continue my Byzantine game last night. I successfully defended against the Persian Seljuks holy war but civil war erupted because of the new faction system. Gosh. Will continue it today hehehe.

 

[unmerged(320188)]

Hmm I finally saw how a non Varangian guard model for the Byzantine army looked like.

Yeah the Varangian model is much better(may not look that way in this particular picture because of bad angling and a black color on the Varangian guards). But the shield I don't know wouldn't it be nice to have them swapped such that the Varangian guards would carry the large round shield while the generic non Varangian guard Byzantine army model would carry the Persian and Arab tall shield. But yeah the Verengian model is excellent. :happy:

I also believe for a heavy shock trooper a two handed axe though very difficult to wield is probably much better to cause mayhem and much more forceful compared to single handed swords or even two handed swords. I'm not sure if a person wielding two handed sword could counter a two handed axe attack swing with his sword. I mean the axe which is heavy at the top would give it such a force that even a two handed sword wielder might not be able to counter the blow with his sword parry unless he just merely deflected it than meeting the axe head on. Terrifying weapon if not more difficult to wield.

Some axe vs two handed sword action from Iron Clad final fight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJQri_kU0ko

 

[Sleight of Hand]

I watched Ironclad the movie couple times the Norse leader with his two handed axe [Gulp] if I bumped into him in a dark alley at night I'd give that guy my wallet immediately axe or no axe. :laugh: He really teared apart the lone knights templar.

I believe that guy was a Dane. I know who you mean, though. Very big fella, a mercenary captain hired by King John. I love the way Giamatti portrays John in that movie.

As for the Byzantine unit sprites, they're very good. I've always liked the African ones, too. Hopefully we get some more DLC sets over time, both units and portraits.

 

[unmerged(159054)]

I was a bit disappointed I didn't get the legionnaire sprites when I restored the empire, sure it's ahistorical, but so is restoring the empire! It would be a cool reward for all the hard work besides being able to zoom out and see "roman empire" plastered across the mediterranean.

 

[unmerged(320188)]

I believe that guy was a Dane. I know who you mean, though. Very big fella, a mercenary captain hired by King John. I love the way Giamatti portrays John in that movie.

As for the Byzantine unit sprites, they're very good. I've always liked the African ones, too. Hopefully we get some more DLC sets over time, both units and portraits.

Ah yeah that John in the movie was believable as a character..maybe not to many people but I've come to know what despotic ruler could behave and do. That John isn't an exaggeration at all. Was played very well indeed.

As for the African units I haven't had the chance to really play them though I have the DLCs.

 

[Lando_Viggo]

Hi Lando...hehehe I didn't realize that the Byzantine heavy infantry were actually Norsemen hence I found it odd that they wield axe which in my opinion a not so elegant weapon for an advance empire. All things explained yeah I now accept the fact that the Byzantine was employing 'Norse" mercenaries and making them the elite guardsmen for the Emperor and probably as elite fighting units as well(like your sources told).
Love the amor a lot. Excellent job on that. Love the model and the color. The red reminds me very much of the Roman red:happy:
Is there reason to choosing an Arab or Persian shield than a large round shield? Just curious because from the picture link on this thread it seemed they were portrayed carrying a large round shield. I absolutely do not know what sort of shield or shields they carried. Hehehe
Anyway these Varangian guards were probably very big fellas in general. I watched Ironclad the movie couple times the Norse leader with his two handed axe [Gulp] if I bumped into him in a dark alley at night I'd give that guy my wallet immediately axe or no axe. :laugh: He really teared apart the lone knights templar
Btw the heavy cavalry model is just insanely awesome too bad I have yet to see them too often in game.
It was too painful to continue my Byzantine game last night. I successfully defended against the Persian Seljuks holy war but civil war erupted because of the new faction system. Gosh. Will continue it today hehehe.

Thanks for the kind words! We put a lot of effort into getting these units right, so I'm happy to hear you guys like them so much : D And yes, please check out the africans too, they're a cool bunch, might be my personal favorite (camels! : D).

As for the shield, I'm gonna explain our thoughs on that one too : )

As I mentioned earlier, when designing these units, you have to take bits an pieces from maaaany different ages and eras in the army in questions (hence, we gave them the axe to remind everyone of the vangarians : ) ). Using a viking shield, we though was maybe a bit much, since we still wanted people to relate these heavy infantry guys to the byzantine troops. Looking at our historical sources, and the pictures we had at hand, the arab "teardrop" shield seemed much more common than the vangarians round one:
http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/1796/byzantineinfantry1wf.jpg
http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/9150/photo20058142124265mkjj8.jpg
(Pictures by the great, and late : ( Angus McBride)

THus, we went with the "most common" one, since the CKII-units are supposed to combine a lot of different aspects from the era/culture into one big "generic enough" look : )

Hope that helps! : )

 

[unmerged(320188)]

Thanks for the kind words! We put a lot of effort into getting these units right, so I'm happy to hear you guys like them so much : D And yes, please check out the africans too, they're a cool bunch, might be my personal favorite (camels! : D).

As for the shield, I'm gonna explain our thoughs on that one too : )

As I mentioned earlier, when designing these units, you have to take bits an pieces from maaaany different ages and eras in the army in questions (hence, we gave them the axe to remind everyone of the vangarians : ) ). Using a viking shield, we though was maybe a bit much, since we still wanted people to relate these heavy infantry guys to the byzantine troops. Looking at our historical sources, and the pictures we had at hand, the arab "teardrop" shield seemed much more common than the vangarians round one:
http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/1796/byzantineinfantry1wf.jpg
http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/9150/photo20058142124265mkjj8.jpg
(Pictures by the great, and late : ( Angus McBride)

THus, we went with the "most common" one, since the CKII-units are supposed to combine a lot of different aspects from the era/culture into one big "generic enough" look : )

Hope that helps! : )

Hmm thanks for the explanation I kinda suspected that was the reason. The thing is the Byzantine army(heavy infantry dominant army) is now modeled as the Varangian guard with their axe and body armor matching or depicting the Varangian guard but if it were depicting the Varangian guard then the large round shield would be the better choice as a matter of consistency. If the design were to depict the most common units and equipment perhaps Varangian guards shouldn't be used though certainly Varangian guards hold the most prestige. Interestingly the mercenaries depicted as non Varangian guard model are carrying large round shield instead the Arab teardrop shield.

Yeah I'm aware the teardrop Arab shields were commonly used(I have a book which illustrates medieval Arab and Western army and knights and units) then again the infantry depicted is already posing as the Varangian guard...Those pictures of soldiers(knights) carrying Arab teardrop shield... they are not Varangian guards well I think you know what I mean.

It's nothing a too big issue I just feel it would be fitting to see the Varangian guards carrying large round shield because they are Varangian guards.

But I guess it's a matter of personal preferences or taste.

Hey in the end it's just my 2 cents worth. I'm already happy with the body armor, color and the axe. They look bad ass. It would be better [in my humble opinion] to swap the shield with the Varangian guards carrying the large round shield while non Varangian guards employed perhaps as Byzantine mercenary are depicted to be carrying the Arab teardrop shield.

Unless of course the body armor isn't specifically depicting the Varangian guards hehehe then it's really a mix of representative units combined. In that sense that it is a generic unit it's fine . You know some of us are geeks who want to relate to our army historically speaking hehehe :happy:

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Love your graphics, Lando. Please give us some more.