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Osteles

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Come here with all you ever wanted to tell about the Romani, but were afraid to do so!!!!!

Lets begin.

Without the fourth crusade the empire would have survived much longer, perhaps even to this day, any comments?
 

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Wasn't the Byzantine Empire to...Byzantine by the 13th Century to survive the Turkish hordes?
 

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The Gonzo said:
Wasn't the Byzantine Empire to...Byzantine by the 13th Century to survive the Turkish hordes?
I don't know. It's certain that the Fourth Crusade put the final nail in any Byzantine resurgence, but whether the Empire could've recovered regardless? It was already a period of fairly serious instability under the Angeli, the Anatolian heartland was shattered, the army was more mercenary than native... the odds certainly don't look good, but things had been recovered from similar bad situations.

I think odds are only a weakened rump state would've survived, fed by trade through Constantinople... a regional power, but nothing much more.
 

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osteles said:
Come here with all you ever wanted to tell about the Romani, but were afraid to do so!!!!!

Lets begin.

Without the fourth crusade the empire would have survived much longer, perhaps even to this day, any comments?


Never, ever call them Byzantines. It's an insult! :mad:

Such a great civilization, which had the most powerful and best organized military of the Middle-Ages (they were Romans, of course). They had baths, aquaeducts and nice villas when Europe was rotting in dirt. They had Greek Fire, the nuclear bomb of the age. They were the bulwark of Europe against Islam. Islam was fended off mainly at Constantinople, not in southern France.

So never call them Byzantines, they're true Romans! ;) :p
 

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Isn't the whole greek fire thing something that's been blown way out of proportion, and was figured out fairly soon by the arabs? I remember reading it somewhere. :confused:
 

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Zohrath said:
Isn't the whole greek fire thing something that's been blown way out of proportion, and was figured out fairly soon by the arabs? I remember reading it somewhere. :confused:

AFAIK the secret was kept well and only transfered from Emperor to Emperor. The Arabs had something similar but as far not as effective as the Roman one. Greek fire burned virtually everywhere, even on water. I remember reading that they even had grenades filled with it. Their ships (dromons) were equipped with flamethrowers for Greek fire. When a dromon appeared, most hostile ship made a long detour to avoid it. :D

That's from Wikipedia:

Greek fire (also called Byzantine fire, wildfire and liquid fire, Greek Υγρό Πυρ, igró pir) was a weapon used by the Byzantine Empire, said to have been invented by a Syrian Christian refugee named Kallinikos (Callinicus) of Heliopolis (Syria), probably about 673. Some people believe that he acquired this knowledge from the chemists of Alexandria. It was capable of discharging a stream of burning fluid, and was very effective both on sea and land. However, it was used primarily at sea. It is rumored that the key to Greek fire's effectiveness was that it could continue burning under almost any conditions, even under water. It was known to the Byzantines' enemies as a "wet, dark, sticky fire" because it stuck to the unfortunate object it hit and was impossible to extinguish. Enemy ships were often afraid to come too near to the Byzantine fleet, because, once within range, the fire gave the Byzantines a strong military advantage.

Greek fire was largely responsible for many Byzantine military victories, and partly the reason for the Eastern Roman Empire surviving as long as it did. It was particularly helpful near the end of the empire's life when there were not enough inhabitants to effectively defend its territories. It was first used to repel the Arab siege of Constantinople in 674-677 (Battle of Syllaeum), and in 717-718. The Byzantines also used this powerful weapon against the Varangians (Vikings) in 941 and against the Venetians during the Fourth Crusade. It quickly became one of the most fearsome weapons of the medieval world. The mere sight of any sort of siphon, whether it was used for Greek fire or not, was often enough to defeat an enemy. However, Greek fire was very hard to control, and it would often accidentally set Byzantine ships ablaze.


Manufacture

The ingredients, process of manufacture and usage were a very carefully guarded military secret, so secret it remains a source of speculation to this day. It may have been a mixture of sulfur, quicklime, and liquid petroleum. It is not clear if it was ignited by a flame as the mixture emerged from the syringe, or if it ignited spontaneously when it came into contact with water. If the latter is the case, it is possible that the active ingredient was calcium phosphide, made by heating lime, bones and charcoal. On contact with water, calcium phosphide releases phosphine, which ignites spontaneously.

These materials were apparently heated in a cauldron, and then pumped out through a siphon or large syringe, known as a siphonarios mounted on the bow of the ship. It could also be used in hand grenades, made of earthenware vessels.


Testimony

The Memoirs of Jean de Joinville, a thirteenth century French nobleman, include these observations[1] of Greek fire during the Seventh Crusade:

"It happened one night, whilst we were keeping night-watch over the tortoise-towers, that they brought up against us an engine called a perronel, (which they had not done before) and filled the sling of the engine with Greek fire. When that good knight, Lord Walter of Cureil, who was with me, saw this, he spoke to us as follows: "Sirs, we are in the greatest peril that we have ever yet been in. For, if they set fire to our turrets and shelters, we are lost and burnt; and if, again, we desert our defences which have been entrusted to us, we are disgraced; so none can deliver us from this peril save God alone. My opinion and advice therefor is: that every time they hurl the fire at us, we go down on our elbows and knees, and beseech Our Lord to save us from this danger."

"So soon as they flung the first shot, we went down on our elbows and knees, as he had instructed us; and their first shot passed between the two turrets, and lodged just in front of us, where they had been raising the dam. Our firemen were all ready to put out the fire; and the Saracens, not being able to aim straight at them, on account of the two pent-house wings which the King had made, shot straight up into the clouds, so that the fire-darts fell right on top of them."

"This was the fashion of the Greek fire: it came on as broad in front as a vinegar cask, and the tail of fire that trailed behind it was as big as a great spear; and it made such a noise as it came, that it sounded like the thunder of heaven. It looked like a dragon flying through the air. Such a bright light did it cast, that one could see all over the camp as though it were day, by reason of the great mass of fire, and the brilliance of the light that it shed."

"Thrice that night they hurled the Greek fire at us, and four times shot it from the tourniquet cross-bow."

This is particulary funny: ;)

"The mere sight of any sort of siphon, whether it was used for Greek fire or not, was often enough to defeat an enemy."

Good for them.

According to the second part of the text, the testimony, the Arabs (Saracens) also had something like this, although it was not as good as the Roman one.
 

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Yes, the greek fire, without it the empire would have been lost much sooner. But all seem to agree, the crusades (especially the fourth) did more bad for the empire than good.
 

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osteles said:
Yes, the greek fire, without it the empire would have been lost much sooner. But all seem to agree, the crusades (especially the fourth) did more bad for the empire than good.

Yes, certainly. The Fourth Crusade was extremly bad for the empire. Without it, Constantinople might not have fallen into Turkish hands.

But the Empire did benefit from the First Crusade. The Romans were able to recover significant areas of Asia Minor previously lost to the Seljuks.
 

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BasileiosII said:
Yes, certainly. The Fourth Crusade was extremly bad for the empire. Without it, Constantinople might not have fallen into Turkish hands.

But the Empire did benefit from the First Crusade. The Romans were able to recover significant areas of Asia Minor previously lost to the Seljuks.

Yes, but IIRC, even during the first some Roman cities fell to the crusaders, or did this only started to happen from the second on?
 

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osteles said:
Yes, but IIRC, even during the first some Roman cities fell to the crusaders, or did this only started to happen from the second on?

Alexios Kommenos, Emperor at that time made the Crusaders obey an oath to him that they should return all Roman cities (which were part of the empire before 1071) they conquered to the Empire. They did that with all except Antiocheia and Edessa, where they formed their own principalities.
 

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BasileiosII said:
Alexios Kommenos, Emperor at that time made the Crusaders obey an oath to him that they should return all Roman cities (which were part of the empire before 1071) they conquered to the Empire. They did that with all except Antiocheia and Edessa, where they formed their own principalities.


Hmm, a misunderstanding on my part then. But nevertheless, crusades were bad ;)

If only they had someone like Belisarius at that time...
 

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osteles said:
Hmm, a misunderstanding on my part then. But nevertheless, crusades were bad ;)

If only they had someone like Belisarius at that time...

I agree, they had lousy emperors after Basileios II. But Alexios and his later follower Manouel were quite able though.
And the Crusades started because the emperor asked the west for assistance. But he didn't want to get massive, independent, agressive hordes, only mercenaries. So this shot backfired somehow. ;)
 

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BasileiosII said:
I agree, they had lousy emperors after Basileios II. But Alexios and his later follower Manouel were quite able though.
And the Crusades started because the emperor asked the west for assistance. But he didn't want to get massive, independent, agressive hordes, only mercenaries. So this shot backfired somehow. ;)


Yes, but he could have known it: the shizm just appeared (1054) and it would be obvious that the pope could support this to make his christian group (the catholics) the most prominent. If he could capture Jeruzalem and all and maintain a strong force there, eventually the Romans would have to give in to the pope and agree that his faith was the one blessed by God. For otherwise God would have let the East capture and hold the holy cities. (strange reasoning those dark-agers had ;) )
 

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osteles said:
Yes, but he could have known it: the shizm just appeared (1054) and it would be obvious that the pope could support this to make his christian group (the catholics) the most prominent. If he could capture Jeruzalem and all and maintain a strong force there, eventually the Romans would have to give in to the pope and agree that his faith was the one blessed by God. For otherwise God would have let the East capture and hold the holy cities. (strange reasoning those dark-agers had ;) )

The pope thought the eastern church would be "corrupted" and that the Empire had to be "rescued" and that the Seljuk attack was the wrath of god on the Romans. He assisted the Empire in the hope that it would return to the "true faith", Catholicism.

One goal of the Crusades was to bring the Roman Empire "back" into Papal jurisdiction.
 

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Losing Anatolia was the biggest blow, no question about it. This is why the Comnens are so important, they managed to do extremly well, even if half of Anatolia was in foreign hands...
 

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Alexandru H. said:
Losing Anatolia was the biggest blow, no question about it. This is why the Comnens are so important, they managed to do extremly well, even if half of Anatolia was in foreign hands...

Yes, Asia Minor was the backbone of the Empire and the manpower pool.
 

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n

True, its a pity you know, they were fighting 3 wars, and won 2 of them.
Too bad they lost the war that was most important, namely the one for Anatolia. :(
 

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osteles said:
But all seem to agree, the crusades (especially the fourth) did more bad for the empire than good.

While I agree about the 4th (getting your capital occupied for decades by foreign conquerers is rarely beneficial), I disagree. The 1st crusade helped to drive the Turks from the shores of the Aegean; prior to it, the Seljuks were on the opposite side of the straits from the Byzantines.
 

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Does anyone disagree that the East Roman Empire was the most highly developed nation of the Middle-Ages (In Europe and Middle-East) both culturally and militarily? :D
 

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BasileiosII said:
Does anyone disagree that the East Roman Empire was the most highly developed nation of the Middle-Ages (In Europe and Middle-East) both culturally and militarily? :D

No, i fully agree, though the Calphate of Bagdad (or however it was called) comes nearby.
If they werent so far developped, they would have fallen sooner: I cant imagine any European nation inventing something like the greek fire backthen.

By the way, another controversial thing I'll throw in: Justinian wasnt the greates emperor they had, on the contrary, he made brilliant Belisarius destroy the christian Vandals, he gave huge amounts of gold to the Persians to keep them at bay, basically, after him the empire was bankrupt, out of manpower and its enemies were stronger.
And it paved the way for the Muslim attack a few decades later, without the christian states to support them, the Romani were overwhelmed...