Byzantine Start Guide [1.14] Cossacks [Ironman]

[casiusbelli]

HOW do you ally Hungary and Poland? ???

At least one of them must rival the Ottomans for it to happen. In this case say Poland rivals them, but Hungary doesn't care so much. Improve relations with both at the same time with a diplo advisor. When both their opinions of you are maxed out, send royal marriage requests. This should take you over the alliance threshold. More often than not they rival each other, so what you need to do is have a diplomat free when the royal marriages have happened and relations are up. The marriage should induce an alliance offer from Poland due to their rivalry with Otto. Keep the offer on screen, but send an alliance request to Hungary with your diplomat. Wait till it's confirmed, and then accept the alliance offer from the Poles. Basically you can only have both as allies if the one who hates the Ottos the most offers you it.

 

[Politic Revolutionnaire]

At least one of them must rival the Ottomans for it to happen. In this case say Poland rivals them, but Hungary doesn't care so much. Improve relations with both at the same time with a diplo advisor. When both their opinions of you are maxed out, send royal marriage requests. This should take you over the alliance threshold. More often than not they rival each other, so what you need to do is have a diplomat free when the royal marriages have happened and relations are up. The marriage should induce an alliance offer from Poland due to their rivalry with Otto. Keep the offer on screen, but send an alliance request to Hungary with your diplomat. Wait till it's confirmed, and then accept the alliance offer from the Poles. Basically you can only have both as allies if the one who hates the Ottos the most offers you it.

Ah you want them to send the alliance offer to you that's a really nice...exploit might use it soon. Only works with Cossacks I assume otherwise they won't send alliance offer

 

[casiusbelli]

Ah you want them to send the alliance offer to you that's a really nice...exploit might use it soon. Only works with Cossacks I assume otherwise they won't send alliance offer

I don't have Cossacks yet so I'm not sure how it happens. Only downside is of course it makes the Ottos less likely to attack, I dunno about others but I prefer it to happen ASAP before they get stronger. The longer they wait the alliance can fall apart through other stuff happening, like PLC fighting Hungary, or Hungary fall under PU. There's a lot of variables.

 

[lymond]

Yeah, kinda like what CB says, except Hung and Pole did not rival each other. I maxed relations and then sent royal marriage requests. I was then gonna try to time the alliance offers simultaneously. My fear being that allying one or the other too soon would give "power nation" malus. Well, did not matter as they both sent alliance offers to me almost immediately and at the same time. I was a bit surprised And yeah, they'd both rivaled the Ottos.

Poles and Co. (including Lith) just melted like wax against the Ottos but still helped as a diversion and manpower meat bag to wear them down. Hard to say what would have happened if things timed well like Oscar laid out for us, i.e., fighting Ottos at Mil 3, but I would probably certainly have lost without Poland.

Ottos are so bloody strong early. I attempted this successfully a few times in the past in several patch versions mainly using the boat strategy. Then it was more about avoiding a fight with Ottos if at all possible. I recall one run that I play and expanded quite nicely but didn't get as far as the achievement for some reason..maybe I wasn't playing ironman back then..can't remember.

I think one of the keys here that Oscar advises is upping development in Achea and Morea. Not only does it allow you to earn some money faster, but the increased force limits make a difference. Yeah, it is only 1 or 2 more units, but everything counts and it makes going over that force limit not as costly...and you need to go over your force limit by 3 or 4 or more.

man, i hope that new beta fixes the damn memory leak/UI mess. Driving me nuts.

 

[Glory22]

Just bumping this to say that OP's channel has really amazing videos and the guides are great, I definitely recommend checking them out!

 

[Day Man]

Great guide! Just took back all of my cores and with only one loan too.

What would you suggest be the next immediate steps after the first war with the Turks? Would trying to expand into the balkans be a good idea?

 

[lymond]

Great guide! Just took back all of my cores and with only one loan too.

What would you suggest be the next immediate steps after the first war with the Turks? Would trying to expand into the balkans be a good idea?

It depends on how things are going in your world after the war...aliiances, wars, rivals and stuff for the AI..

I think the following are possibilities or suggestions for next steps:

1) Obviously recover your economy, manpower and build up army and naval forces.

2) Integrate Athens asap

3) Establish any new strategic alliances that work best for you...Austria, Poland, etc.

4) Check what is going on with Crimea, Theodoro and Genoa area. Look for opportunities to expand there. If Theodoro somehow survives you may be able to simply diplo-vassal them later. If going for the achievement you need Cafa.

5) Check Byz Rebels in some of the provinces/islands around you. I had like 2 or 3 provinces flip to me and I supported rebels when I could.

6) Venice and the Knights are obvious targets, Get all the claims you can on them and attack when they are in trouble. Venice may have strong alliances like a France, Aragon or Castille, but I attacked when those allies were burned out in others wars. Plus, Hungary and Austria usually hate Venice so will join that war easily. Get Crete, Corfu, Negroponte, Naxos, (Albania, if Venice grabs it which they usually do), and Rhodes. Dalmatia is one you can get one way or another later on. In my recent game, Bosnia had grabbed it off Venice when I was crushing her. Then I vassaled Bosnia shortly after.

7) Support rebels in Cyprus when you can - it usually has rather high revolt risk for some time. You will likely have to fight Mamluks or possibly Venice for it. If it doesn't flip I would probably wait until after second war with Ottos so you can build up more navy to ice the Mams.

8) I'm big on vassals and Influence. I leverage that as much as possible in games and i think it works here. In the first Otto war, I actually took one Bulgaria province and released them, then fed all their cores back in 2nd war with Ottos..that's quite a lot of the Balkans right there.

9) Serbia and Bosnia are usually ripe for the taking (and Ragusa if it still exists which is unlikely). I usually vassal one and feed the other but that is up to you. I probably would not attack them until you have established a land border via Albania or Bulgaria.

10) Keep fighting and expanding into Anatolia. If any of the Beyliks exist you might vassal one and feed them, but otherwise keep the pressure on the Ottos. Honestly, after that first war, the Ottos were pretty much toast and the wars were fairly easy, although with ally help. After the 2nd war I could handle them on my own.

11) Hungary will likely eventually turn hostile later, especially if you get alliance with Poland. They might attack Wall too, who assume you are allied with. I dishonor call from Wall and let them go, you can easily release and feed them later. If Wall otherwise survives for a long time, you can probably eventually just vassal them when you get large enough. (they have high core cost due to tradition so I'd not fight them unless you fight to vassal them)

12) Later on Itally may be a good target. Keep eye on Castile/Aragon/Naples, etc. You will get mission on Venice as well to end them.

13) I picked up Trebizond easily in a war with Crimea, claiming their vassalage from Crimea. Anything could happend to Treb, but you want that one way or another.

14) Keep tabs on Orthodox Georgia and Circassia. Also a very volatile area so anything could happen to them. Obviously good place to expand religion wise either in a friendly manner or aggressively. Vassal one/feed the other or conquer outright. (in recent game oddly Georgia not only survived being QQ's vassal, eventually gaining back independence, but grew quite large and allied Moscovy. Surprising the same happened to Ryazan, another Orthodox area.)

Once you restore them Empire and take most of Anatolia you will be a very big power.

I like Influence, Admin or Innovative, and Offensive as first ideas. You don't need Religious as Byz unless you just want it for the CB. You don't need to westernize but might try to do so later via Vienna or Prague.

 

[MagnusDux]

what ideas would you recommend for byzantium after the first war with the turks?

 

[Day Man]

Thank you for the suggestions, lymond.

Unfortunately in my game Ottomans stayed strong well into the 16th century by rapidly expanding into Anatolia and allying Poland/Lithuania and blobby Bohemia. I've decided to end this run because the Ottomans always had an upper hand no matter how much land I took from them.

I might give it another go in a bit. Any suggestions when it comes to destroying them in 2-3 wars?

 

[lymond]

\

Unfortunately in my game Ottomans stayed strong well into the 16th century

hmmm....bad luck with Ottos allying Pol/Lith. It's crazy that they get Christian alliances now. I had Ottos pretty much eliminated around 1500AD. If things go generally as planned, once you take back your cores, and maybe grab a Bulgarian province as well to release them as vassal, Ottos are weakened substiantially. Mind you, they are still a force and you need allies, but they should fair poorly in other wars like with the Mamluks.

In my case, which I think is probably quite rare, I was able to ally Hungary and Poland at the same time, as mentioned. However, you should still be preparing yourself ally Poland and Austria shortly after you complete the first war. I had no problem allying Austria after getting back my cores and recovering.

You might try and make sure you roll a start where Poland rivals Ottos...it's fairly common.

Otherwise, only really a couple of suggestions I can make regarding future Otto wars - and it may be more than 3 wars depending on how they fare elsewhere - for better or worse:

1) Expand as much as you can one way or another during the truce and integrate Athens so you can open up diplo slots for allies or vassal. (I'm not afraid to go over the diplo slot limit though)

2) With your cores, you should be able to sustain a rather significant fleet. You want to eliminate the Otto navy. Should not be too hard if you play it right (Check Oscars earlier Byz strategy guide for naval warfare against Ottos) As Byz, you want to start achieving naval superiority in the Med anyway as it helps against Venice and the Mamluks, and possibly later against Spain. (Spain can be a problem, or Aragon, if you have designs on Italy)

3) Prepare for war and save money as the truce approaches and attack when Ottos are distracted in another war - ideally with Mamluks or QQ

4) If you release Bulgaria, you should easily be able to get all their cores back in 2nd war, basically eliminating Ottos from Euro side, while taking several claims in Anatolia. You might consider taking a province and releasing a Sunni vassal like Karaman or Candar and feeding back cores in subsequent wars. Saves admin anyway as well as keeping religious unit high

5) At least in the second war you want a strong ally like Hungary and/or Poland involved. Ottos will still be strong and your forcelimit likely no more than 17 or 18 depending on what you did during the truce.

Anyway, as I mentioned. 3 wars seems unrealistic in most cases I think unless Ottos get hit hard by others. In my case, the Mamluks had some success and Ottos could not take Candar and Karuman as they had not tried to until my second war with them. In fact, I declared when Ottos were fighting them. I vassaled Candar shortly after.

Lastly, be aggressive and opportunistic when it comes to Ottos. As soon as a truce ends you should be hitting the hard. Ottos are almost always at war so should not be hard to find the right time. If you stay on them early, and with success, I don't see them getting Christian allies.

 

[Day Man]

Okay thanks man, I will give it another go

 

[Raphael87]

I tried everything, I one of games I managed to get Hungary as ally before Otomans attack me - 2 months later they formed PU with Austria rofl. Once I managed to get Poland into alliance, Otomans attacked me while they were busy with TO, and just destroyed everything, first me then they melted Poland/Lithuania armies. I have around 30 restarts so far, 20 of them don't even go past first 3 to 6 months, instant DOW.

Just retarded, to survive this you need some extreme combination of luck and rng and at this moment my will to keep trying is at rock bottom

 

[Liquid Ghost]

I have around 30 restarts so far, 20 of them don't even go past first 3 to 6 months, instant DOW.

Goes without saying, but you've been notably unlucky there.

You shouldn't waste your time with Poland, they are not terribly reliable because they often get into Baltic business within a few years of startup, just like it happened to you; also, they are deceptively weak, they get militarily out-tech'd by the Ottomans within a decade. They are a paper Tiger. Hungary, on the other hand has a superb general in Janós, the regent, and they have enough troops to put up a fight against the Ottomans.

My only advice would be to work on an Italian ally as well. Milan usually rivals Genoa and/or Venice, so there's a good chance there as long as you rival the right people. Savoy usually picks up Genoa as a rival when Milan doesn't. I once managed to get Hungary+Milan+Wallachia as allies in time for the Otto DoW. It went pretty good. Aragon won't do because Hungary and them usually mutually rival each other. Mamluks won't ally you but they might give you subsidies after working the relation with them.

 

[Raphael87]

Yeah, I tried that, again, required couple of restarts to get Hungary as Ottoman rival, then to ally them. Now problem is Ottomans aren't attacking. Their armies are around my capital for the last 2 years, but nothing is happening. I have 15k troops ready to enter their territory but can only wait for them to make first move, I can't attack because Hungary won't join and Ottomans are allied with Bohemia as well. Thinking about it now, if they are waiting, maybe AI is smart enough to actually wait until they have enough favors with Bohemia so they join as well. If that happens I'm pretty much fubar. Even insulted them to provoke, they are not coming

Oh well, lets wait and see.


update: 30 years later Ottomans still around capital, now with one merged army. Not attacking me (I managed to get alliance with Mamluks), they didn't even attack single of that minor countries, nothing. Such interesting game so far, I must admit

 

[Raphael87]

Yeah I'm done with this. Finally got a run where I managed to ally Hungary before Ottomans destroy me, they even attack Venice for Crete, I join the party to take 2 islands near me and give Hungary Dalmatia to keep them happy and guess what?

Hungary gets into PU. You saw that coming, didn't you? Of course you did. As soon as Ottomans make peace with Venice, their rekt train is coming for me.

Hey yeah, I wanna shoot, baby....