Byzantine Monarchy

[GeneralJhon]

But you see, you just changed your argument. You just went from justifying the need for the Byzantines having a particular form of government (in your case one that's drastically above and beyond the technology of any neighbors) based on realism to arguing against giving them maluses based on the idea that I'm some boring realist. Pick an argument or admit that this is special pleading

Seems, i have been misundestood. I say that there is no necessity since Absolute Monarchy can be the one that represents Byzantium if people wants to have a basileus all powerful. Or it can be Feudal like it is now, since it represents, from my point of view, the state of the Byzantium Government at its final days. I do not mind if Devs want to create a new special government for Byzantium, because i think absolute or feudal can be the ones that complete that function.

My argument is there is no need since Absolute and Feudal exists, but if devs decide to create a new one, i do not oppose.

 

[GeneralJhon]

The thing is we have a government type for the kind of semi-absolutist government you guys are talking about (absolutist de jure, but feudal de facto) and that's administrative. Slap that on the Byzantines and it seems we'd be good?

Yeah, i mean we have now a lot of types of Monarchy that can fit the Byzantine Government. Depends on what people wants or "how historically was represents on those final days".

 

[Ritmas]

It doesn't even need special new gov., give back the old one.

 

[Had a dad]

alrighty then. A couple people will discover they cannot post in this thread anymore

 

[frankatank109]

The Different Government that you are saying is the Absolute Monarchy, where the Basileus had all the power. And that is that. If you want to have a special government only for Byzantium, then change the feudal to absolute where the Ruler Word is Law. Byzantine government structure was like an absolute monarchy. Emperor/Basileus/King says and does what he wants. The governors/Dukes/Counts have to obey the politics and the dictation of the Ruler, and so on and on. You can argue that the structure is from the Roman Empire, etc. Yeah, it was like that; but it changed. The Crusades, the Kommenos Politics, The Latin Empire, etc. bring changes to the empire, and the feudal system with that. There were coups like the high middles ages, the Basileus was the represent of Christ on earth, he was divine, etc. all those traits that the Byzantine Empire had were present in its final days. But the government changed.

So if you want to have a special government for Byzantium, i do not mind. But which one would be?, it is not a differente case like the Poland's elective monarchy; from my point of view, it was an absolute monarchy with a few variants.



Yup, thats right. If people want to have a Super-Realistic-Start Date. then should be like that.

A unique Byzantine government would be something between Feudal and Absolute. Because it was not quite either of those at this point in time.

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

A unique Byzantine government would be something between Feudal and Absolute. Because it was not quite either of those at this point in time.

Probably +5% Discipline, -1 unrest and -0.05 global autonomy.

 

[GeneralJhon]

A unique Byzantine government would be something between Feudal and Absolute. Because it was not quite either of those at this point in time.

Yeah, maybe a new government like OP suggest. But I still believe that Feudal or Absolute could fill the space. It is quite hard to determinate which as you said; but who knows?

 

[Ameron]

I would say I'm a... what you call them? Byzantophiles? Well, that's me.
Actually I did not like the unique government Byzantium had in previous patches. Sure, the morale bonus for troops was awesome early and medium game, but having the empire forbid Byzantium to change to absolute monarchy and the following governments, which are way better than the one they start with.
As for those saying that Byzantium shouldn't deserve developers attentions, since it's just a tag bound to destruction in the earliest years of the game, well, there's some truth to it.
BUT, if that argument is true, then it should also be valid to oppose the various nerfs, direct or indirect, that Byzantium suffered, starting with losing many of its cores held by other tags: either Byzantium don't need care, then it's fine as it is and it shouldn't get nerfed or buffed, or it does. Since the developers change its starting position and survival chance in almost every patch, I'd assume the second is valid.
Also, cut it out with the "nerf Byzantium" non sense. It's not France. Every game I don't play them they get annexed and never seen again.

Edit: by the way, Byzantium wan't an absolute monarchy in the day, at all. If feudal doesn't fit well, it probably deserves dispotic monarchy (and that is another slight nerf, incidentally)

 

[Heinrikr]

As much as I find Byzantium and Rome interesting, I am somewhat of an "anti-byzantophile" with regards to byzantium in EU4. As far as I am concerned the game might as well start in 1453 just so that I'll won't have to suffer the presence of Byzantium. Eu4 is set in the early modern era, and relics like byzantium belong in the medieval era. Or, to take it further in the name of getting rid of medieval relics, move the start date to 1477 so that burgundy is gone too.

Not much of a problem though, as they usually die by themselves.

 

[IsadorBG]

A unique Byzantine government would be something between Feudal and Absolute. Because it was not quite either of those at this point in time.

There's already one perfectly fine for the Byzantium remnants : Despotic Monarchy.

 

[Grand Historian]

Traditions: +3 Tolerance Own, 1 Prestige

Byzantine Diplomacy: 1 Diplomat
Reconquista: - 20% Core-Creation Cost
Greco-Roman Foundations: -5% Idea Cost, 1 Prestige
Patriarchate of Constantinople: +3% Missionary Strength
Army Reform: +15% Morale
Byzantine Industry: +5% goods produced, 15% Provincial Trade Power
Cultural Primacy: -20% Culture-Conversion Cost

Ambition: +2 Diplomatic Reputation

I don't want to be rude, but those ideas are way too OP and unbalanced, and quite frankly there's no way they can get implemented because of that. Byzantium is by no means an important or relevant power to the period, and those are ideas that one would give to a nation that was. The changes to their ideas I suggested moreso just rearrange them to let the player use them more effectively than actually changing the modifiers themselves.

 

[Zak Preston]

I don't want to be rude, but those ideas are way too OP and unbalanced, and quite frankly there's no way they can get implemented because of that. Byzantium is by no means an important or relevant power to the period, and those are ideas that one would give to a nation that was. The changes to their ideas I suggested moreso just rearrange them to let the player use them more effectively than actually changing the modifiers themselves.

If Byz is unimportant to you, it doesn't mean it's unimportant for someone else. Also compare proposed ideas with Hordes, Provencian or even Anatolian ideas, looks like not a bid deal.

 

[Itchel]

I love the idea of the government but i'm not a fan of the idea changes, infact I think the byzantines could get a bit more of a buff, Although that reduction to core cost is kinda nice considering the developers love taking away byzantiums cores.

 

[Grand Historian]

If Byz is unimportant to you, it doesn't mean it's unimportant for someone else. Also compare proposed ideas with Hordes, Provencian or even Anatolian ideas, looks like not a bid deal.

You do realize I started this thread, right? I'm not saying that I don't care about Byzantium, or that they are unimportant to me (there is a marked difference between being important to me and being important to the timeframe), I'm saying that there needs to be some pragmatism involved if Byzantium's ideas will be officially changed.

 

[Grand Historian]

A 3-province minor destined to die within a few years of start in 90% of games does not warrant more developer attention.

Exactly! This was what I said when I that Granada was getting more flavor as well, but for some reason everyone decried me. Weird right? While we're at it, France could probably use a buff. Oh wait; you mean Byzantium?

 

[frankatank109]

There's already one perfectly fine for the Byzantium remnants : Despotic Monarchy.

Seeing as how that is the government form used by most of the Anatolian Beyliks, I would say definitely not.

 

[Zhetone]

Seems, i have been misundestood. I say that there is no necessity since Absolute Monarchy can be the one that represents Byzantium if people wants to have a basileus all powerful. Or it can be Feudal like it is now, since it represents, from my point of view, the state of the Byzantium Government at its final days. I do not mind if Devs want to create a new special government for Byzantium, because i think absolute or feudal can be the ones that complete that function.

My argument is there is no need since Absolute and Feudal exists, but if devs decide to create a new one, i do not oppose.

you do realize the only reason they're feudal is because that's the generic European government form, right? they didn't do research and decide it fitted best.

 

[Vivi_]

A 3-province minor destined to die within a few years of start in 90% of games does not warrant more developer attention.

Yeah developpers don't care about Byzantium, they wasted their time on a dedicated DLC and gave it to players preordering EU4 to show them how bad Byzantium is and how they don't care about it.

And if you wish they don't mind about it, maybe should you mod your game or create your own.

The logic is so strong I can touch it.

"La classe mondiale. Peut être même, le champion du monde."

And by the way, what is wrong with being intersted in Byzantium? I like Byzantium, it never forbid me to play any other country. Actually, I don't play Byzantium very often. And when I do it, it's fun.

 

[Puritan]

As the game goes on that restriction to Empire chafes more and more. I'm not entirely sad to see it go, but I do mourn the lost of some of Byzantium's flavor.

I wish the Purple Phoneix had a little bit more flavor for Byzantium's transition (in the hands of a player) from vestigial empire to new heights of power. As is, once you reach a certain number of ideas the Byz govt flavor events just stop. Ideally I'd like something similar to the Polish events or Netherlands events that represent an evolving administration.

 

[Merrick Chance']

I would say I'm a... what you call them? Byzantophiles? Well, that's me.
Actually I did not like the unique government Byzantium had in previous patches. Sure, the morale bonus for troops was awesome early and medium game, but having the empire forbid Byzantium to change to absolute monarchy and the following governments, which are way better than the one they start with.
As for those saying that Byzantium shouldn't deserve developers attentions, since it's just a tag bound to destruction in the earliest years of the game, well, there's some truth to it.
BUT, if that argument is true, then it should also be valid to oppose the various nerfs, direct or indirect, that Byzantium suffered, starting with losing many of its cores held by other tags: either Byzantium don't need care, then it's fine as it is and it shouldn't get nerfed or buffed, or it does. Since the developers change its starting position and survival chance in almost every patch, I'd assume the second is valid.
Also, cut it out with the "nerf Byzantium" non sense. It's not France. Every game I don't play them they get annexed and never seen again.

Edit: by the way, Byzantium wan't an absolute monarchy in the day, at all. If feudal doesn't fit well, it probably deserves dispotic monarchy (and that is another slight nerf, incidentally)

I agree with this and personally, any buff that makes harder for AI Ottos to defeat AI Byzantines is just going to mess up the whole darn game in that region. The game already has enough issues with the rise of any power in the Middle East to the rank of credible threat, why would we make it even harder in the name of a 3PM?

Give it some buffs that are hard to reach via decision, give it some flavor events, but don't make it easy on an early game Byzantine player, let alone Byzantine AI