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frankatank109

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lol dude, i always saw you in every post complaining about the changes. Is okay, is your opinion =). I prefer what they did there. Since the have implemented the new titles rank of a country, it is obviously that they change the "goverment" to feudal monarchy. Perhaps it was not okay to put it on Feudal Monarchy, since ERE was not like the Western nations. Probably, with the influx of the Crusades, Byzantine Nobility started to create "Feudal Territories" but, theoracally it was still a "central government". At the end of the life of the ERE, the Basileus did not have more power even in those little territories, except in Constantinople. Thats why Morea still survived even when the Ottomans conquer the capital: there was no "royal" power there.

I like that they changed it to Feudal, it represented what happened there: from a Central government to a "Semi-Feudal" government; meanwhile in the west the change was from a Feudal Government to a Central Government.

PS: BTW I am Byzantophile.

The problem is that even in it's much more decentralized and weakened form, the Byzantine government had an entirely different structure than that of a Western kingdom. The Feudal Government type is meant to represent those western kingdoms, and thus cannot possibly be the Byzantine government. Just because you're a Byzantinophile doesn't make you right about Byzantium.
 
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bbqftw

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Of course it does. It's the last legitimate and true piece of the ancient Roman Empire on the map.
yeah, absolutely.

...We're talking about Trebizond right?
 
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DmUa

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It's not illogical. It's the foundation of all statistics.
- it is illogical and have nothing to do with statistics.
It's also the reason Paradox frequent these forums so much for feedback and suggestions: because what people ask for here is generally well received by their entire fanbase.
- it is Pdx forums it would strange if Pdx was not frequent on their own forums. But forum plebs are not synonymous to Pdx fanbase, even Johan stated this many times, and you trying to present 2-3 forum guides to Byzantine as some hard and statistically proved evidence of of incredible Byzantium popularity. This is laughable.

Fixing graphical bugs isn't "easier" and it's totally different from something that you really only need notepad for.
- thats why moders fixed them already. LoL Do you understand that siberian tribes fix was just 2 minutes work in notebook?:D


I wasn't calling you passive-aggressive, I was saying that the use of smilies in some of the posts was passive aggressive, including yours. It's not the way they should be used. That, and you posting here seems to contradict your statement a bit.
- complete lack of self awareness and self contradictions are more noticeble in you posts for now.:D
 
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Angeleyed

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This is a very positive thread in the forums and ruins the whole "anti common sense" - "antidlc" air that blows. Please close it so people can return to their crying threads....


P.s. (It excites me! Make it happen :p)
 
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mudcrabmerchant

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Just becuaase Byzantium is small and disappears quickly does not mean that it should not be correct. And a Feudal Monarchy is absurdly incorrect.

Indeed. It would be totally justifiable to edit one line in the code and make them a despotic monarchy, the closest you can get out of current government forms available at that tech level.

But developer time is a limited resource, and things like special snowflake government types should be made for countries that are actually relevant for more than 10 years of the time period.
 
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Ritmas

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- popularity and fun are subjective. And some people think that allocating devs work hours on certain tags are unreasonable and that those work hours could be spent better elsewhere.;)

Better throw more manhours to imporant nations as England, oh wait, after 12patches and countless unique mechanics added it's still the most boring nation in the game.
 
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spyroware1

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Agree somewhat, disagree somewhat.

The Ming example has taught us that forcing supposed histrorical setups a bit too much actually makes for unfun, restrictive gameplay. I think I'd rather have a more neutral development path for Byzantium rather than read too much in stuff like its administration was bad or they didn't do x or y etc. Despotic Monarchy is OK. I miss the 10% morale but c'est la vie.

Traditions: +3 Tolerance Own, 1 Prestige

Byzantine Diplomacy: 1 Diplomat
Reconquista: - 20% Core-Creation Cost
Greco-Roman Foundations: -5% Idea Cost, 1 Prestige
Patriarchate of Constantinople: +3% Missionary Strength
Army Reform: +15% Morale
Byzantine Industry: +5% goods produced, 15% Provincial Trade Power
Cultural Primacy: -20% Culture-Conversion Cost

Ambition: +2 Diplomatic Reputation

I think this a much stronger set of ideas that offers a good degree of flexibility, historical flavour and gameplay value. Most importantly they feel right as a progression, they tell a story of a minor who becomes a great power, and you unlock them as you need them since you only have a tiny window with your position. I feel all the "hopeless" tags like Byzantium, Granada, Albania etc should have strongs ideas like these - high risk high reward gameplay is amazingly fun in strategy games.

Beyond that Byzantium could also use some later date flavour events. Interaction with Reformation - eg for a few years in the early 1600s the Orthodox Church declared itself doctrinally similar to Reformed, PU efforts for Hungary, antagonism with PLC/Russia over Ruthenia/Black Sea/Orthodoxy, exploration/colonial events for the Indian Ocean eg Juan de Fuca, Constantine Phaulkon's antics in Thailand etc. Sure the last two are not part of Byzantine history, but if you're playing a revived Byzantium in the 1600s appropriating a few Greeks from other countries to fashion some tangential Greek history beyond the Ottoman Empire is fun (and educational!).
 
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nAssailant

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- it is illogical and have nothing to do with statistics.
It does, and it is. Its called statistical theory and the population of the forums can be called a sample of the fanbase. One could argue that it has bias but that isn't what you're doing.


- it is Pdx forums it would strange if Pdx was not frequent on their own forums. But forum plebs are not synonymous to Pdx fanbase, even Johan stated this many times, and you trying to present 2-3 forum guides to Byzantine as some hard and statistically proved evidence of of incredible Byzantium popularity. This is laughable.

There are plenty of forums for companies - even gaming companies - where the organization that owns them doesn't frequent, but rather lets community moderators police.

- thats why moders fixed them already. LoL Do you understand that siberian tribes fix was just 2 minutes work in notebook?:D

That isn't a graphics issue like you said, then. Its a scripting issue that was fixed with notepad, just like adding in governments would be. Just because it involves some graphic doesn't make it an graphics issue, it is an issue that involves graphics; there is a difference. You also just strengthened my argument that the byzantine government change would take minutes to implement.


- complete lack of self awareness and self contradictions are more noticeble in you posts for now.:D

You misunderstood. You took what I said as a personal attack on you, when it wasn't. At any rate, your posts are confrontational and built on poor argument and dismissal, and they really have no place in this topic, much less this forum (or anywhere for that matter). For that reason I don't appreciate anything you're saying and I don't think it contributes to the discussion here.
 
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DmUa

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Better throw more manhours to imporant nations as England, oh wait, after 12patches and countless unique mechanics added it's still the most boring nation in the game.
- englandophiles would disagree. But suggestion that certain Blurple nation is more important and requires more work hours investment have exactly same nature as your englandophobic jab.;)
 
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Ritmas

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- englandophiles would disagree. But suggestion that certain Blurple nation is more important and requires more work hours investment have exactly same nature as your englandophobic jab.;)

Creating new gov. form is like 5min work. The real discussion should be 'should ERE receive some extra fun treatment?'.
 
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Merrick Chance'

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Creating new gov. form is like 5min work. The real discussion should be 'should ERE receive some extra fun treatment?'.

And the answer is no.

My suggestions for more realism in Byantium: add 5 loans to signify their indebtedness to the Italian states, give them an event with a medium MTTH that spawns rebels in their periphery to show tensions between Catholic and Orthodox parts of the army.

Then give the Ottomans a unit of artillery and a series of bonuses
 
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Violent AI

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A slightly off topic question but why is it that western tech nations get the Byzantine refugees event that gives them cheaper tech but Byzantine ideas do not? Apparently refugees from Byzantium are good enough to improve western tech nations while they are not good enough to improve their own eastern tech nation?
 
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GeneralJhon

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The problem is that even in it's much more decentralized and weakened form, the Byzantine government had an entirely different structure than that of a Western kingdom. The Feudal Government type is meant to represent those western kingdoms, and thus cannot possibly be the Byzantine government. Just because you're a Byzantinophile doesn't make you right about Byzantium.

The Different Government that you are saying is the Absolute Monarchy, where the Basileus had all the power. And that is that. If you want to have a special government only for Byzantium, then change the feudal to absolute where the Ruler Word is Law. Byzantine government structure was like an absolute monarchy. Emperor/Basileus/King says and does what he wants. The governors/Dukes/Counts have to obey the politics and the dictation of the Ruler, and so on and on. You can argue that the structure is from the Roman Empire, etc. Yeah, it was like that; but it changed. The Crusades, the Kommenos Politics, The Latin Empire, etc. bring changes to the empire, and the feudal system with that. There were coups like the high middles ages, the Basileus was the represent of Christ on earth, he was divine, etc. all those traits that the Byzantine Empire had were present in its final days. But the government changed.

So if you want to have a special government for Byzantium, i do not mind. But which one would be?, it is not a differente case like the Poland's elective monarchy; from my point of view, it was an absolute monarchy with a few variants.

And the answer is no.

My suggestions for more realism in Byantium: add 5 loans to signify their indebtedness to the Italian states, give them an event with a medium MTTH that spawns rebels in their periphery to show tensions between Catholic and Orthodox parts of the army.

Then give the Ottomans a unit of artillery and a series of bonuses

Yup, thats right. If people want to have a Super-Realistic-Start Date. then should be like that.
 
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Chief of Staff

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I was kind of feeling sorry for the AI Byzantium (which btw I have yet to play them myself up to this point) so I gave them triggered modifier entitled "Byzantine Luck" in my personal mod with pretty simple requirements (Must have a port, must not be a Great Power, must be a BYZ tag, and must be AI). This is historically implausible, more of a fantasy thing but what do I care? :p

If anyone care to use it in their personal mod, feel free.

Code:
###########################################
# Byzantine Luck
###########################################
helper_byz = {
    potential = {
        num_of_ports = 1
    }

    trigger = {
        NOT = { is_great_power = yes }
        tag = BYZ
        ai = yes
    }

    land_forcelimit_modifier = 1
    global_manpower_modifier = 1
    global_regiment_recruit_speed = -0.5
    free_leader_pool = 5
    discipline = 1
    manpower_recovery_speed = 0.25
    land_morale = 0.1
    naval_morale = 0.1
    recover_army_morale_speed = 0.2
    naval_maintenance_modifier = -0.05
    land_maintenance_modifier = -0.05
    defensiveness = 0.2
    siege_ability = 0.05
    leader_land_fire = 1
    leader_land_shock = 1
    mercenary_cost = -0.25
    war_exhaustion = -0.15
}
 
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GeneralJhon

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A slightly off topic question but why is it that western tech nations get the Byzantine refugees event that gives them cheaper tech but Byzantine ideas do not? Apparently refugees from Byzantium are good enough to improve western tech nations while they are not good enough to improve their own eastern tech nation?

The event represent how the greeks contribute with the renaissance. The cheaper teach represents that: "Now they know about the ancient statues, paint, they now about Platon, Aristoteles, etc.". It is too confused to create a special "Byz Tech", where it is like -50% cost of tech, etc. because the world was changing. Yeah, Ancient knowledge contribute to the Renaissance, but sooner or later it would happened
 

DmUa

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It does, and it is. Its called statistical theory and the population of the forums can be called a sample of the fanbase. One could argue that it has bias but that isn't what you're doing.
- it is not, even Pdx themselves stated many times that sole reliance on forum inhabitants would lead to nothing because forum inhabitants are of really small numbers so they does nor represent anything but temselves ( and to be frank it cant even represent itself because look at all those major divides that happens after almost all major update ). It is exactly like if i formed my opinion on religious people solely relying on only religious fanatics. And it have nothing to do with statistics, especially considering that even your example did not showed any hard evidence of your words, because all that you stated was - "oh but look at all whose 1-3 guides to Byzantium that appear on this forum after major patch now and then, surelly it means that byz syper popular and desired to play by everyone".



There are plenty of forums for companies - even gaming companies - where the organization that owns them doesn't frequent, but rather lets community moderators police.
- and here are plenty of those were devs are active too, still it is far more expectable for devs to be active on their own platform, does not it?


That isn't a graphics issue like you said, then. Its a scripting issue that was fixed with notepad, just like adding in governments would be. Just because it involves some graphic doesn't make it an graphics issue, it is an issue that involves graphics; there is a difference. You also just strengthened my argument that the byzantine government change would take minutes to implement.
- irrelevant semantics, it was graphical bug because it concerned incorrect graphical image display that could be fixed in two minutes but it took almost a year for Pdx in order to fix this issue, so i cant see how it could prove your statement in anyway.




You misunderstood. You took what I said as a personal attack on you, when it wasn't. At any rate, your posts are confrontational and built on poor argument and dismissal, and they really have no place in this topic, much less this forum (or anywhere for that matter). For that reason I don't appreciate anything you're saying and I don't think it contributes to the discussion here.
- for now it is not me who confronts but you, all i deed was explanation of why would some people view certain other people and their suggestions as inherently flawed and harmful, i did not even specified at that moment who are those people, but you decided that it looked as an attack on everything dear and precious to you and you decided to confront me over my original statement from which point our conversation was started. And it is actually your own opinion and post unlike mine are completely irrelevant to this topic, because if mine original post is at least partially in theme of topic your posts are nothing but a mixture of projection, ad hominem and complete lack of self awareness.
 
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Merrick Chance'

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Yup, thats right. If people want to have a Super-Realistic-Start Date. then should be like that.

But you see, you just changed your argument. You just went from justifying the need for the Byzantines having a particular form of government (in your case one that's drastically above and beyond the technology of any neighbors) based on realism to arguing against giving them maluses based on the idea that I'm some boring realist. Pick an argument or admit that this is special pleading
 

Merrick Chance'

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The thing is we have a government type for the kind of semi-absolutist government you guys are talking about (absolutist de jure, but feudal de facto) and that's administrative. Slap that on the Byzantines and it seems we'd be good?
 
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DmUa

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Creating new gov. form is like 5min work. The real discussion should be 'should ERE receive some extra fun treatment?'.
- 1. creating new gov form is 5 minutes, but ensuring that it is feat in the game and balanced from all point of view's is completely other. In my opinion despotic monarchy would fit better than feudal one and that byz dont require new and unique gov form ( especially now when after commno sense game saw drastical decrease of unique govs ) , but that just my opinion. 2. Everyone should receive extra fun treatment, but devs have only so much time and moneys.
 
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