Byzantine Monarchy and small idea tweak

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

Byzantine Monarchy:

As of patch 1.12, Byzantium has lost it's Unique government, by removing the empire. Removing flavor from nations is not good and only makes countries more boring to play. Not only that, but Byzantium gained Feudal monarchy, giving them a huge nerf. I suggest to add the Byzantine Monarchy. As in this alternate timeline, Byzantium tried getting as close as possible to their old government, while still implementing modern ideas.

Byzantine Monarchy:

+5% Discipline
-2 Revolt risk
-0.10 Autonomy change

Gained after you have reconquered Greece

And this changes to Absolute monarchy after you westernize.


Byzantine idea change:

Change -10% Stability cost with -5% Tech cost, because a Orthodox Byzantium already has more than enough stability cost decreases.
Why tech cost?
It makes sense, as Byzantium surviving is a alternate timeline, it would be logical that they would try to keep up with the western countries, to keep their dominant position in Eastern Europe.

EDIT1: Removed parliament and increased revolt risk reduction.

 

[Basileios Makedon]

Why the Parliament mechanics?
Anyway, I llike the rest.
Let the anti-byzantinophiles come.

 

[horngeek]

Wasn't Empire pretty similar to Feudal Monarchy though?

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

Wasn't Empire pretty similar to Feudal Monarchy though?

Empire pre-1.12:
+20% Income from vassals
+10% Morale of armies
-0.10 Global autonomy change.

They were pretty similar, but Empire was way better.

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

Why the Parliament mechanics?

To represent a sort of modernized roman senate and this is the closest thing in the game.

 

[DerMaulwurf]

Byzantium was my first Ironman game and my first long game before that and I like it a lot. Being locked into a special government wasn't part of what I liked. A big draw of the Byzantium game is also attempting to reconquer as much of the Roman empire as possible. Parliament mechanics aren't good for such a wide game at all. Plus the senate simply had not been a thing for a long time in the EU time line.

Westernization is of course much easier since 1.12, but a special government form shouldn't be something I'd want to get out of.

 

[Basileios Makedon]

To represent a sort of modernized roman senate and this is the closest thing in the game.

Remove it from the post and I'll agree. The senate was completely dead in 1444

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

Byzantium was my first Ironman game and my first long game before that and I like it a lot. Being locked into a special government wasn't part of what I liked. A big draw of the Byzantium game is also attempting to reconquer as much of the Roman empire as possible. Parliament mechanics aren't good for such a wide game at all. Plus the senate simply had not been a thing for a long time in the EU time line.

Westernization is of course much easier since 1.12, but a special government form shouldn't be something I'd want to get out of.

So you didn't want to get out of a special government, but you do?

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

Remove it from the post and I'll agree. The senate was completely dead in 1444

Ok, so that is some boni removed, should i increase something in the government boni?
EDIT: -1 revolt risk changed to -2.

 

[.Me]

To represent a sort of modernized roman senate and this is the closest thing in the game.

The senate was dead by at least two hundred years, the Byzantine state had nothing to do politically speaking with the same empire in the Middle Ages or late antiquity. The government form of the Byzantine Empire is exactly summed up in the administrative monarchy already present in the game. And create a special form of government for it would be redundant.

What would be the big difference and uniqueness of the government of byzantium? None. and then how justify a special form of government from them?

By the way I'm sick of this idea that the Byzantine Empire and the Roman Empire are the same identical thing, go there and study Cato the Elder and his writings, and you will understand what the real Romans thought of the Hellenism.

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

The government form of the Byzantine Empire is exactly summed up in the administrative monarchy already present in the game. And create a special form of government for it would be redundant.

What would be the big difference and uniqueness of the government of byzantium? None. and then how justify a special form of government from them?

So you are saying that a nation who lost their unique government should not get a new one? So you don't want to give flavor to a popular nation to play? So you want Byzantium to be like some random european nation while it is one of the last remnants of the Roman empire (With trebizond) in the world? Yeah because Byzantium was exactly a 1550s European monarchy.

 

[DerMaulwurf]

So you didn't want to get out of a special government, but you do?

If there was a special government, I would prefer it to be either completely optional, or at least not tight to a big thing such as westernization.

If I can't have that and there are significant hurdles to getting out of that government, it should actually be good enough to want it. I admit that wasn't clear from my first post.

Your proposal is neither: There is a barrier to getting out (need to be able to beat up Austria and allies or even westernize the hard way).And it's a government I would want to get rid off.

On top there is no reason to have a parliament and without that, it's pretty much absolute monarchy come early.

 

[.Me]

So you are saying that a nation who lost their unique government should not get a new one? So you don't want to give flavor to a popular nation to play? So you want Byzantium to be like some random european nation while it is one of the last remnants of the Roman empire (With trebizond) in the world? Yeah because Byzantium was exactly a 1550s European monarchy.

Yes, Byzantine government in 1444 was exactly similar to an European monarchy of the sixteenth century. Indeed the European monarchical system is made in the image of the Byzantine one. At least initially. If we insert a form of government unique for Byzantium; Russia, Trebizond, Theodoro and the Ottomans should have this form of government.

The old byzantine unique form of government was there only because the game lacked of the title "Emperor", the bonuses that gave that form of government could be given to Byzantium in another way.

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

Let's all get to a compromise:
Byzantium starts as an Administrative monarchy.
When it reconquers Greece, it gets an event with 4 choices:
We want a more centralised nation:
Changes government to Byzantine Monarchy

We want a decentralised nation:
Changes government to Feudal monarchy

We want to keep it like it is:
Nothing

Let the people decide:
Changes government to Administrative Republic

 

[.Me]

PS: I thought about it, create a unique form of government called "Autocracy", in which is specified its Byzantine origin in the description, and give it to Byzantium, Trebizond and Theodoro, and make it accessible to the Ottomans by the decision to move the capital to Costantinople, or create a specific decision "adopt the title kayser i rum", and to Russia, through the decision to create Russia, It would not be so bad... And we'd all be happy.

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

PS: I thought about it, create a unique form of government called "Autocracy", in which is specified its Byzantine origin in the description, and give it to Byzantium, Trebizond and Theodoro, and make it accessible to the Ottomans by the decision to move the capital to Costantinople, or create a specific decision "adopt the title kayser i rum", and to Russia, through the decision to create Russia, It would not be so bad... And we'd all be happy.

What would the boni be?

Edit: I have thought about it, i think that it should give -1 Revolt risk, -5 Years of sepetarism and -0.15 global automomy.

 

[.Me]

What would the boni be?

maybe something like the old boni (i love you for the use of plural latin XD) that were once given to the form of government "empire". Maybe there may be a penalty which increases the possibility of give rise to a pretender revolt in the moment of succession, for example, if stability is less than +2, there is a pretender revolt. It would be historically correct, both Russia, both the Ottomans and the Byzantines suffered due to the instability of the government. It would balance the big boni given by the new form of government as the morale bonus.

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

maybe something like the old boni (i love you for the use of plural latin XD) that were once given to the form of government "empire". Maybe there may be a penalty which increases the possibility of give rise to a pretender revolt in the moment of succession, for example, if stability is less than +2, there is a pretender revolt. It would be historically correct, both Russia, both the Ottomans and the Byzantines suffered due to the instability of the government. It would balance the big boni given by the new form of government as the morale bonus.

My logic was more that because the emperor had total power, that people were scared to rise up and a big autonomy decrease because a Autocracy would be cracy centralised. Maybe byzantium should get a +10% morale bonus if they have less than 20 provinces?

 

[talilu]

Byzantium shouldn't westernise. It should be western from the beginning.

 

[Mattius]

If there was a special government, I would prefer it to be either completely optional, or at least not tight to a big thing such as westernization.

If I can't have that and there are significant hurdles to getting out of that government, it should actually be good enough to want it. I admit that wasn't clear from my first post.

Your proposal is neither: There is a barrier to getting out (need to be able to beat up Austria and allies or even westernize the hard way).And it's a government I would want to get rid off.

On top there is no reason to have a parliament and without that, it's pretty much absolute monarchy come early.

So you mean like the Ambrosian Republic?