Byzantine Empire : To make the kingdoms ?

[WovenTide]

Hello !

I just got the Legacy of Rome DLC, and i'm asking myself a question. Should i or shouldn't i create the different kingdoms which form the bizantyne empire ?

I imagine it should be easier to manage 5 vassals than managing 50 of them, but if i start the game as emperor Doukas in 1066, and if i already give away the Greek kingdom to a vassal, i get a -50 malus with him, as i have two duchies in his territory. Should i even give this kingdom ?

Likewise, the faction system seems to support the diverse pretenders to a great extend. However, to not have kings among my vassals allows me to restrain revolt in an easy way, as they seem to never support a plot together. While having 5 king as vassal seems more dangerous, it could be easier to keep them away from revolting, as having a 80+ relationship with them avoid them to join factions.

Oh and finally, should i or shouldn't i put people of dynasty on the diverse byzantine thrones ? I heard i might get more prestige this way, but if they do have the "born in the purple" trait, they could be more inclined to revolt.

Thank you for reading, and i hope my english is not too bad !
Have a nice day

 

[Comradebot]

Its a tough call... at the start, I'd say its a pretty resounding "no". While its less to manage, you're also not strong enough yet to deal with such a potentially powerful rebel. As you get bigger... it may not be too bad of an idea. Eventually, that many dukes is simply too many to simply pass honorary titles and bribes to. With the smaller kingdoms in your realm, like maybe Taurica or Bulgaria, its not a terrible idea. They'll be stronger, sure, but they can be the primary beneficiaries of gifts/titles and you can keep a larger chunk of land happier for less effort.

If you do create then hand off a kingdom title, then just give them the ducal titles as well. Absolutely no reason to keep them yourself... instead, keep the ducal titles of lands you plan to keep for your own demesne.

As for giving kingdoms to relatives... its a solid idea so long as they don't have claims on your titles. A distant cousin, however, shouldn't have any claims on the Empire and will get a small bonus to relations due to y'all being of the same dynasty. Not only that, but it'll boost the dynasty score up thanks to a member of your dynasty holding a kingdom, meaning your kids will be born with more prestige (which is a nice bonus). Honestly, if you're going to pass a kingdom off to someone as an emperor, this is the ideal situation. Just under no circumstances should you give it to someone with a claim on your titles, not unless you're just in the mood for a giant civil war (which hey, maybe you are).

 

[justin6477]

I plan to.

Personally, all I've kept so far (In a past game) is the title King of Greece, and the Duchy of Thrace. I even give away 2/3 Thracian counties, the ducal title and Kingship to my male heir once he's of age. Although I will be keeping Latium once I seize that.

If you maintain a full retinue, it should allow you to deal with most rebels in short order.

 

[Gqarz]

I plan to.

Personally, all I've kept so far (In a past game) is the title King of Greece, and the Duchy of Thrace. I even give away 2/3 Thracian counties, the ducal title and Kingship to my male heir once he's of age. Although I will be keeping Latium once I seize that.

If you maintain a full retinue, it should allow you to deal with most rebels in short order.

Keep the kingdom of Greece, it's humongous and almost all of your core territory. The part about retinues is also true. I'm up to over 40k in retinue size which is more than any 2 of my vassals can field, including the kings of Sicily and Anatolia.

 

[siis]

I'm up to over 40k in retinue size which is more than any 2 of my vassals can field, including the kings of Sicily and Anatolia.

But if you retinue get damaged can you still pay the upkeep?

 

[Lord Finnish]

Don't create the Kingdoms. If you hold them yourself your vassals will want it and if you give it to a vassal then you will have half your empire breaking off when you end up in a civil war.

 

[brucepm]

I personally have restored the Roman Empire and still haven't created any of the kingdoms, largely because of the simply massive hit I take to my tax base every time I do-- I lose something like half of my monthly income. It's boggling. I don't mind dealing with all of those tiny dukes, and the Augustus and Born in the Purple traits make it easier to keep them on my good side. And if any of them do revolt, they're less likely to take a huge chunk of my empire with them! Keep the vassals weak, I say. But different strokes for different blokes, as they say.

 

[Federalist girl]

It's a huge hit to taxes, but it helps mitigate the faction annoyance if you don't have a zillion doukes trying to mess things up for you. My big issue with it (the taxes aren't an issue when you get far enough) is that Greece, Bulgaria, and Anatolia end up autocephalous -- they don't fall under the ecumenical patriarchy, which makes no sense at all. So I end up passing around all these kingdoms *except* the ones in the heartland of the Empire.

 

[Malvius]

I created the small Kingdoms of Serbia and Bulgaria as they are easy to control, I gave them to 2 trusted content men.
I'm educating their heirs and try to make them like me. With the Kingdom of Bulgaria I'm able to raise 4500 levies at once.

 

[WovenTide]

Thank you all for your answer, it was very useful, and i'll try my best

 

[Acularius]

It justs a gapstop honestly. Once you reach a certain number of kings they are just as annoying as a huge number of dukes.
Personally I think I've reached Critical mass since Independence wars have slowly lowered my authority.

I take min. levies and strong taxes to pay for my superior retinues.
I never made the Kingdom of Greece, and I think that keeps my Greek dukes in line, however, the other Kingdoms, keep trying to consolidate into one and I constantly need to assinate, plot, and such to in order to keep them in line. Specifically my Eastern Kingdoms. Since when they rebel I have to hold off the bloody humongous Ilkhanate which seems immune to such civil warfare.

In almost ever Independence war I had to fight, they rebels always get the 'WAGH! Brigands event' spawing ~200k troops for the rebellion attrition (and upkeep) free. Which is hard to muster a big enough army against in the deserts of Egypt and mountains of Ethiopia. That, and where the heck did all those guys come from? I can understand ~50k, but 200k?

Generally though, I make the kingdoms as it makes the realm easier to manage.

 

[VILIAMUS AVGVSTVS]

Ok, as an emperor of anything, the question always lies on who gets to be despot and who doesn't. I generally raise a dynasty of super high Stewardship, so keeping most of western anatolia and thrace-adrianople under my direct personal demesne is not a problem.
Kingdoms I end up creating, or "allowing to exist" as sometimes the dukes will create like bulgaria or serbia if tey get the strength to do so, are few, this is primarily because as Emperor, you can revoke a ducal title at whim(no realm wide malus), and then give it to a random count to keep unruly vassals in check and to break superdukes. That said I do like keeping kings ruling the border areas, like Taurica, Croatia and Syria, I never create the kingdoms of Greece or Anatolia, since it is just me and a handful of minor dukes that rule there, and I destroy literally every duke title I can afford to without malus, because I find Larger demesne > prestige bonus.

I really find factions to be a non issue when you control a personal demesne of 15 or more. and large vassals on your borders makes rising troops for wars along those borders quick and easy.

 

[Rado]

I'm currently on my first game as the Byzantines and it's around 1200. I've got several king vassals, but only one in the de jure Byzantine Empire (Armenia). Figured in the event of a rebellion it'd be better if those bastards are at the peripheries. I haven't had any major revolts through a combination of high-diplo rulers, gifts and liberal usage of the chancellor and spymaster. Once they're strong enough they'll even go about conquering their de jure territory from the saracens, saving you the trouble I also try to give the king titles to family members who either don't have a claim on the throne or who have the content trait