"Byelorussian" culture name

[Buladelu]

Looking at recent Map Teaser I wonder why Byelorussian is spelled this way. It looks like an old transliteration.

Today as well as in XIX century in Belarusian language the country is called "Belarus' " and the culture/language is called "Belarusky". In Russian language they often call the country "Belorússija" and culture/language is "Belorussky". Modern English transliteration is "Belarus" (or if you want to base it on Russian pronunciation for some reason then it's "Belarussia"). "Byelorussian" seems to be an old transliteration from Soviet times - transliteration of the same word mind you.

Wiktionary says "Byelorussia" is an obsolete term. I don't think it means "historical" term as in Slavic languages there's no "old" word for Belarus (except maybe literal "White Russia").

Wouldn't it make more sense to call this culture Belarusian or Belarusan?

 

[Mister X]

Belarussian kind of shouldn't exist until late game

 

[Buladelu]

Belarussian kind of shouldn't exist until late game

Probably so but it'd be a very big suggestion. Not sure if term should have any meaning in the game's timeframe as Lithuania considered those lands part of "Rus'" or Ruthenians. But I see why it's there for gameplay reason: even though you shouldn't have Belarusian culture rebelling (ahistorical if it happens before XIX century) those lands should still be relatively hard to conquer to control for Russia and those patriots may try to recreate independent Polotsk.

And making it Ruthenian is probably more historical but creates potential for strong Kiev state and rises a question why Commonwealth had problems with Ukrainian lands (Orthodox Ruthenian) but not with Orthodox in Belarus.

 

[InFerroVeritas]

Whenever you're working with an alternate alphabet things get a little wonky. Transliterations tend to change with some regularity and it takes a rather long time for people to adapt. There's an inertia inherit in transliterations that just takes time to overcome. People who grew up with Wade-Giles are inherently resistant to Pinyin; this isn't any different.

Fun fact: that asteroid named after Belarus hasn't been renamed. It's still Byelorussia.

 

[1alexey]

Belarussian kind of shouldn't exist until late game

In that case, Russian culture needs to be divided similarly to German and French culture.
The region was not culturally homogenous my any means, actually, till Soviet union instituted public education in "proper" Russian, and local traditions differed a lot.

 

[moscal]

The first man, who said, "Ego sum Leuсorussus", was a Salomon Rysinski (Rysiński, Рысі́нскі) with Ostoja coat of arms.

It was in the fifteenth century and Salomon was Calvinist. In this timeline Poles used the term "Ruś Biała", Russians "Белая Русь", in latin "Leucorossia".

 

[fr-rein]

It should have been addressed in Poland update, but wasn't, so it is still a valid suggestion.
Why it is specifically called Byelarussian and not Belarus/Belarusian?

And making it Ruthenian is probably more historical but creates potential for strong Kiev state and rises a question why Commonwealth had problems with Ukrainian lands (Orthodox Ruthenian) but not with Orthodox in Belarus.

Simple. Commonwealth consisted of 2 constituencies: Kingdom of Poland and Grand Duchy. Ukraine was a part of Poland and Belarus was a part of Lithuania admonitively. The difference was that Lithuania, as others said, was heavily influenced by Ruthenian culture and nobility and unlike Poland didn't convert them. "Ruthenian" (local variant of evolution for Old Russian) was even official there, until Russia took away many Belarus land and Ruthenians were less represented there. And unlike Poland, Lithuania didn't force Catholic conversion, thus making a big difference in how Ruthenians were treated in these lands.
However, it doesn't mean that Hetmanate under Khmelnytsky didn't try to liberate those lands. They actively tried to, but Lithuanians were initially successful in defending. Given that they were kind of also critical of Poland (due to Protestant influence too) they didn't actively fight there. And after 1654 Russia took Belarus as it was agreed by Cossacks and Russians in their alliance (which was broken by Russians), so it didn't fall into their sphere.

There are also more cultural peculiarities, like Galych people having kinda different culture and that "Byelarussian" culture with Ryazanian could be split differently, but that's another topic. I hope they just fix name and fix """"Ryazanian"""" culture.

 

[Matihood1]

I just want to add one thing to the discussion: Don't confuse transcirptions with transliterations. "Byelorussian", "Byelorussia" etc. are all transcriptions. Transliterated, it would be "Bjelorussian", and "Bjelorussia", closer to how other Slavs that use the Latin script would spell it. Transcriptions are how English speakers would more or less pronounce it, which sometimes creates weird things when it comes to the cyrillic script, for example the word "Белый" (which means "white") would be transliterated to "Bjelyj" and transcribed to "Belyy" or even "Bely".

 

[moscal]

@Matihood1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Russian current "е" can be transliterate into "ye".

 

[fr-rein]

Question is not just transcription/transliteration, but also how we use the name. Belarusian is more commonly used today or so I think, going with "Byelorussian" is odd. We don't call Red Ruthenia "Chervona(ya) Rus' " for example or White Ruthenia "Belaya Rus' ". If name is translated, then maybe it is better to use more common modern one?

 

[Matihood1]

@Matihood1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Russian current "е" can be transliterate into "ye".

Oh yeah, you're right. I forgot for a moment that Russian language has different transliteration rules than, say, Belarusian or Ukrainian for some reason.

 

[moscal]

Oh yeah, you're right. I forgot for a moment that Russian language has different transliteration rules than, say, Belarusian or Ukrainian for some reason.

This is only "oldest traditions". In belarusian and ukrainian was this same methods like in russian, but before beginning of the 21st century (I will not give you the exact year). It is probably connected with national laws or better connections with polish language (in polish traditional transliteration >east-slavic< will be into "je" - eg https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Łacinka_białoruska ).

but also how we use the name.

From original. First person, who was Balerussian descript himself as "Leuсorussus" so name of culture should be... maybe... Leucorossian (??)

 

[fr-rein]

This is only "oldest traditions". In belarusian and ukrainian was this same methods like in russian, but before beginning of the 21st century (I will not give you the exact year).

Here it happened with a national law, where it regulated use of transliterations from English for names and official things. It was required to distinguish letters г and ґ, as well as install a way to make only 1 way to transliterate the name.
It is not demanded to be used everywhere, Russian-like transliterations are possible and can be used even by banks, as long as they do not mess where it is required.

From original. First person, who was Balerussian descript himself as "Leuсorussus" so name of culture should be... maybe... Leucorossian (??)

Technically they should be Ruthenians, as were Orthodox people in Commonwealth called. Existence of Ruthenians and Belorusians at the same time is odd.
Also, there is Black Ruthenia too, but it is called "Pripiat" area for reasons unknown.

 

[moscal]

Technically they should be Ruthenians, as were Orthodox people in Commonwealth called. Existence of Ruthenians and Belorusians at the same time is odd.
Also, there is Black Ruthenia too, but it is called "Pripiat" area for reasons unknown.

But first man, who said, "Ego sum Leuсorussus", was a Salomon Rysinski (Rysiński, Рысі́нскі) with Ostoja coat of arms and his wasn't orthodox but calvinist. Originally, the Belarussian identity was not strictly connected with the Orthodox Church and was many Balerussians as catholics or western-heretics.

 

[fr-rein]

Originally, the Belarussian identity was not strictly connected with the Orthodox Church and was many Balerussians as catholics or western-heretics.

True. And a lot of differences were also a result of being a part of Lithuania in Commonwealth.
I meant mostly not that they should be one with Ruthenians, but that Ruthenians as a name is used to denominate Orthodox people in Commonwealth. This coexistence is odd.

As for name origins - White Ruthenia was used as a geographic name even before that. There is no question that Belarusians could exist, rather that Ruthenians should be Ukrainians in theory (which would be also confusing though).

 

[Buladelu]

I don't think that a single statement from a specific person should override other sources. As the game goes into the 19th century it doesn't seem like a problem to me using the later name as long as it clearly applies to the same people. Also, for the most part, the game uses English terms. Not sure if words like Boyar are known to English speakers but when it's about big things like cultures and country names Paradox usually chooses familiarity. You can play as Emperor of Japan, not Mikado of Nippon.

And going beyond pronunciation opens a huge can of worms and we still should think about gameplay reasons. It makes gameplay sense that most of Lithuanian East Slavic territories wouldn't be the same culture as Russian states.