Buying material from more advanced country's.

[unmerged(33619)]

So the only solution to our endless discussion goes through a different reinforcement system...

Or you make it impossible to reinforce purchased equipment. If Italy buys a tank divison from Germany, it cannot reinforce said divison. The reason is because it was bought. Yes, it isn't the best solution, but it is better then trying to figure out how to rethink the entire reinforcement system.

If a nation buys out of date tanks, or more advanded tanks, you could make the arugement that a nation doesn't have the capablilty, or the out dated equipment to fix or repair said tanks. Cause lets be serious if you buy planes, or tanks you're buying the cast off's of another nation.

 

[Diomedene]

I said biased, Indeed what you stated though was correct.

Diomedene: Well now that you explained how new stuff and ships can be done I agree! I'm personally hoping for a different contruction system then in HoI where you built units in a province as opposed to nowhere and then deploy them wherever you want, but that's a different topic.

As for javiermcabo, I think we all have to wait and see how different the reinforcing works compared to HoI, from what I can tell it looks like it might be done differently

I think that most of us agree that a new construction/reinforcement system is to be hoped for. As for reinforcing bought units, we face a similar problem to reinforcing expeditionary forces that we couldn't build.

Of course the whole thing is more of an intellectual exercise since we must base things off of HoI 1. For instance, I think that there was an upgrade slider in a screenshot that probably changes things enough that either of these systems would have to be re-worked in HoI 2. On the other hand, maybe one of the powers-that-be might pick up the basic idea from here and decide to follow through.

After all we non-betas have to work on something...

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Or you make it impossible to reinforce purchased equipment. If Italy buys a tank divison from Germany, it cannot reinforce said divison. The reason is because it was bought. Yes, it isn't the best solution, but it is better then trying to figure out how to rethink the entire reinforcement system.

If a nation buys out of date tanks, or more advanded tanks, you could make the arugement that a nation doesn't have the capablilty, or the out dated equipment to fix or repair said tanks. Cause lets be serious if you buy planes, or tanks you're buying the cast off's of another nation.

Fro what I can tell from the screenshots the reinforcement system probably has been overhauled, also we have to understand what losses in battle, are, not only tanks being blown up but damanged, caught in the mud, their crew was killed etc. and there are always tanks in reserve (to a certain extent), also we have to understand contracting, liscensing, etc. I think that purchased divisions should be able to reinforce but to never to full strength until the proper tech is attain yourself (or traded to you)

And how many times do I have to say not all arms purchases where cast off! I think I mentioned in every post I've made!

 

[TheFlemishDuck]

Or you make it impossible to reinforce purchased equipment. If Italy buys a tank divison from Germany, it cannot reinforce said divison. The reason is because it was bought. Yes, it isn't the best solution, but it is better then trying to figure out how to rethink the entire reinforcement system.

But if you follow that logic ,then you just shouldn't be able to reinforce any devission at all.Because reinforcing is way more cheaper than actually producing the stuff you use in the reinforcement.You go from the logic that the strentgh you loose is effectivly a number of vehicle's and not miscelanious dammage to most of them ,and that would logicly mean that those vehicles have to be made from scratch and thus warrants the total rebuilding of those vehicle's ,so that should have the same cost in industrial output than building a number of vehicle's from that type like you do in devissions.

You have basicly 2 ways of seeing reinforcements ,either the loss in strenght is loss in complete vechicle's ,and then the theory could be that no devissions should be reinforceable and anything should be build from scratch ,or the loss of strentgh is miscelanious dammage and reinforcement means repairs wich then everybody should be able to do.

The nation that bought the equipment would be able to to repair it's devission just like Germany could have actually ,however it wouldn't be able to do that with the same industrial effeciancy ,while Germany would have the assembly line's for the spare parts the nation that bought the devission would have to make the spare parts in a more artisanal way.Because when for ex. Brazil has bought a few hundreds of hawker huricane's ,it could easily repair the dameged one with spare parts looking at the hawkers it still has to see wich parts it needs and how they have to construct that material. A better representation would be that reinforcing the equpment that was bought would just be more expensive in supply's than reinforcing a devission where you had produced the material itself.
In this sense ,i would have no problem with it when a Nation that has very good industrial tech should have cheaper reinforce costs than a nation with few industrial techs.

But i keep stressing that an abrevation must be made of reinforcement for game purposes like the reinforcement in HOI because the material used in a armor devission for ex is way more varried than what it by name says it is.
A devission of pzIV in Hoi is also filled with trucks ,Stug's of varried kinds ,small number of light and heavy tanks ,infantry ,recon vehicle's like special kinds of halftracks (puma's for ex) ,hummels or other kind of tracked artillery ,,whirblewinds or other kind of tracked AA ,and let us not forget various guns mounted on scavanged undercariage's.
A country that would have bought a devission of "PzIV" would if they had lost a number of material have replaced it with various other material that they could have bought and would have scavanged lost material to use for ex the undercarriage's to mount guns on it.

Anyway ,i find this discussion straining really ,we were talking on ways how we could represent the sales of material ,not how to remodel the reinforcement system of HOI or define what it consists of.
In any case ,for game purposes if the reinforcement sytem stays how it is then IMO the laws should apply for Smaller country's than for larger country's ,but industrial output could be taken into account.In HOI an industrial avanced nation could produce supply's cheaper than industrial non-advanced nations though ,so replacing for them in HOI was in fact cheaper than the minor.

Another thing could be added though wich IMO is a better sollution ,that if bought material is reinforced it should have in additon to cost in supply's also a cost in cash.

 

[winisle]

Back to topic?!

I would like to be able to buy equipment, tanks and such, over the counter, but I would also like to be able to buy the license to produce that type of equipment. For example, as Sweden, I would like to upgrade my armour to Panzer IV and I buy the right to produce that tank, giving me that tech, but not any of those leading up to it, just like Japan being able to produce 400+mm naval guns without having the prerequired tech.

 

[unmerged(12244)]

i would think it would be friggin boring if every major nation is running around with Panther tanks, where is the fun in that every country have the same harware by -43? skip the whole tank and airplane buying thing.
A human player will always find ways to exploit a system like that.
And i dont wanna see a single russian panther facing off with my own when i play Germany just because they found a way to buy that tank from another country.

Specially nation made haedware should stay in that nation for good and bad.
Use exp. forces from your allies to resemble buying equipment and tanks.

 

[TheFlemishDuck]

i would think it would be friggin boring if every major nation is running around with Panther tanks, where is the fun in that every country have the same harware by -43? skip the whole tank and airplane buying thing.
A human player will always find ways to exploit a system like that

Sigh ,afcourse ballancing is needed ,logicly.First of all who says you would even be able to buy panthers? Germany would have to agree on that ,and some factors should be in place to calculate the chances of being able to buy stuff. (like being of same political ideoligy should help for instance)
Secondly the more advanced stuff should be much harder to buy ,especially when the selling country is at war ,and when that nation has a technological advantage over it's enemy's. (so wanting to protect it's advanced tech ,and keep it's own material for war)
Thirdly it should be hard to buy such stuff at mass ,especially for the smaller country's. (financial limittations ,not to much material on sale)
Fourth ,a smaller nation wouldn't usually have the doctrine's to make as good use of that material.

A human could find exploits in almost any feature if no limitations wouldn't be in place for it ,you would reason as such that a game shouldn't have feature's at all because they could be possibly exploited.
Every feature that is implemented must have limitations to make it non-exploitable ,and when it's exploted anyway (wich happens with many feature's) patches are made to adress that usually.

Use exp. forces from your allies to resemble buying equipment and tanks.

We have touched that part already ,exp forces are loans for allies ,this is about selling of equipment usually to country's that are at peace or not in one of the big alliances .

And it's historicly justifiable.Masses of country's bought material ,in fact few nations except the major ones actually produced their own material.Though most material was sold at peace time unless under allies ,country's at war usually didn't sell material so it should be near impossible to buy stuff from a countryat war ,perhaps unless it's really obsolete for them.

Did you know that prior to Barbarossa ,russians bought a number of PZIII's from Germany ,while Germany bough a number of tanks from Russia?Just a little side-note.

 

[unmerged(12244)]

Sigh ,afcourse ballancing is needed ,logicly.First of all who says you would even be able to buy panthers? Germany would have to agree on that ,and some factors should be in place to calculate the chances of being able to buy stuff. (like being of same political ideoligy should help for instance)
Secondly the more advanced stuff should be much harder to buy ,especially when the selling country is at war ,and when that nation has a technological advantage over it's enemy's. (so wanting to protect it's advanced tech ,and keep it's own material for war)
Thirdly it should be hard to buy such stuff at mass ,especially for the smaller country's. (financial limittations ,not to much material on sale)
Fourth ,a smaller nation wouldn't usually have the doctrine's to make as good use of that material.

A human could find exploits in almost any feature if no limitations wouldn't be in place for it ,you would reason as such that a game shouldn't have feature's at all because they could be possibly exploited.
Every feature that is implemented must have limitations to make it non-exploitable ,and when it's exploted anyway (wich happens with many feature's) patches are made to adress that usually.



We have touched that part already ,exp forces are loans for allies ,this is about selling of equipment usually to country's that are at peace or not in one of the big alliances .

And it's historicly justifiable.Masses of country's bought material ,in fact few nations except the major ones actually produced their own material.Though most material was sold at peace time unless under allies ,country's at war usually didn't sell material so it should be near impossible to buy stuff from a countryat war ,perhaps unless it's really obsolete for them.

Did you know that prior to Barbarossa ,russians bought a number of PZIII's from Germany ,while Germany bough a number of tanks from Russia?Just a little side-note.

Yeah, you sigh. But it seems rather hard to implement this feature without getting an AI that dont offer there best hardware on the market.
Even though if its sold and bought equipment during peacetime they still could sell it to a third party. The Panthers was an example.
Say you sell infantry equipment as Germany to Sweden (or any other country) then when -41 starts and you attack SU you find that same equipment used against you because its sold from the buyer to a third party.
I dont think thats fun, even though nations sold and bought all kinds of military equipment to each other im afraid that it might be hard to keep such a feature under controll (from one that doesnt know squat about programming) and we then see alot of weirdness.
If its easy to controll, not any large volumes its ok otherwise it would ruining the game for me.

No i didnt know that, thanks for sharing.

 

[javiermcabo]

Well...
If material is not represented in an equipment pool (let me see.... i'm going to sell these churchils to greece-like), there's no point in this discussion.
Flemish, I'm sorry but the idea of producing a division and selling it is way out of what I'm expecting from HoI2.