Buying material from more advanced country's.

[TheFlemishDuck]

Well usually it were also private companies that enlarged the industries.

Well ,there were private innitiative events in Hoi that expanded youre industry ,so at some point that was moddeled.

Anyway ,at this point i would really like a reply from someone like johan or the Dev's if such a feature could possibly be implemented at this stage of the game development and if they would reckon it to be feasable.

 

[unmerged(33619)]

Maybe a player could add weapons to sell like how one added destroyers to convoys? If a plane or tank is considered dated at the disband screen you can be given the option of sending it to the "selling" pool, or "lend lease" pool. Instead of getting all the manpower back from disbanding the player will only get 2/3's of it. So in a way you could give tanks, and planes to nations that need them, or you could sell them to who ever forks over the cash.

If playing as the nation reciving the equipment, it should take less manpower to deploy it. Seeing as how the weapons are already built it should take about a few weeks, or a month to deploy it.

 

[Zorgoth]

Maybe a player could add weapons to sell like how one added destroyers to convoys? If a plane or tank is considered dated at the disband screen you can be given the option of sending it to the "selling" pool, or "lend lease" pool. Instead of getting all the manpower back from disbanding the player will only get 2/3's of it. So in a way you could give tanks, and planes to nations that need them, or you could sell them to who ever forks over the cash.

If playing as the nation reciving the equipment, it should take less manpower to deploy it. Seeing as how the weapons are already built it should take about a few weeks, or a month to deploy it.

That would be a reasonably workable idea, as long as the ai understood what it was supposed to do

It would add some fun to multiplayer games as smaller nations had to beg for tanks... :rofl:

 

[Diomedene]

Another variant would involve an upgrade/trade pool. Major nations would probably start with a few items in this pool, which would be ready for sale. When that nation upgrades equipment the "old equipment" is placed into the pool and may then be sold.

When a sale takes place the unit involved is removed from the pool and is placed in the buyer's production queue using the upgrade formula for cost and time. The manpower cost would be deducted as for a new build however.

A country would also be able to remove units from its trade pool and place it into its own build queue at the same cost (bringing it "out of mothballs" so to speak).

As this system would add units to the game, the cost of building units would probably have to be tweaked slightly upward as well in order to maintain play balance, although manpower requirements should help dampen this effect.

This system also prevents trade from interfering with an ai country's production while allowing a fairly realistic picture of equpment sales. The one weakness is that it doesn't support naval sales well. Any ideas?


Example:
Country x upgrades their 2 pre-war tactical bombers to basics. 2 pre-war tactical bombers are added to country x's trade pool.

Sometime later country y buys one tactical bomber, which is placed into country y's build queue as an upgrade, and the unit's manpower cost is deducted from country y's manpower pool. one tactical bomber is removed from country x's trade pool, leaving one.

Later yet country x is having a tough time, and decides to pull its other prewar tactical bomber out of mothballs. It is then placed in country x's build queue as an upgrade, and the unit's manpower cost is deducted from country x's manpower pool. There are no no tacs in country x's trade pool (unless they had done more upgrading)

 

[Semi-Lobster]

In my biased opinion, selling of ships is the most important and widespread use of selling weaponary, basically every nation that wasn't the US, UK, Italy, Japan, Germany, France, the Netherlands, Spain, Sweden, Norway, and Denmark had to buy ships from other countries. Also as I said before the premise of only being able to sell obsolete equipment is flawed as often sales where of the most advanced design of the time

 

[unmerged(33619)]

Country x upgrades their 2 pre-war tactical bombers to basics. 2 pre-war tactical bombers are added to country x's trade pool.

Sometime later country y buys one tactical bomber, which is placed into country y's build queue as an upgrade, and the unit's manpower cost is deducted from country y's manpower pool. one tactical bomber is removed from country x's trade pool, leaving one.

Later yet country x is having a tough time, and decides to pull its other prewar tactical bomber out of mothballs. It is then placed in country x's build queue as an upgrade, and the unit's manpower cost is deducted from country x's manpower pool. There are no no tacs in country x's trade pool (unless they had done more upgrading)

That is a great idea. Now would there be a cost to get the equipment for country y? Or would it be a loan?

For the navy, I think it should have to be a straight trade. You build a battle ship, or sub and then decide to sell it to another nation.

 

[Diomedene]

Semi-Lobster:
I have similar biases myself
My thought is to include new builds into this system in order to accomodate non-obsolete and naval sales.

Specifically that nations be allowed to accept trade contracts before a unit is constructed. The AI would need a fixed IC percentage cap on this, which would vary depending on peace/war status. Under this cap, as with any trade, the AI would need to decide whether the commodities being traded (in this case ICs used to build, so pretty much as supplies are valued) are worth the buyer's bid.

Upon completion of a unit it may be "deployed" to the trade pool and follow the normal rules. All trades should be C.O.D. (although see below) to prevent a (human controlled) country from making huge numbers of trades, collecting on them, and then cancelling production. Also this frees the building nation to not deploy the unit to the trade pool, representing situations where the building nation suddenly finds itself at war (with the lower trade threshold) and needs to commandeer that newly built cruiser rather than delivering it.

# edit: Any unit deployed to the trade pool should return manpower to the nations pool as if it has been disbanded to avoid possible exploits. Hmm...this means that there would be a manpower cost as well as an IC cost involved for the selling country. They would need to take this into account when valuing the trade. This also makes sense in that a nation will be able to buy old (upgraded, thus no manpower cost) equipment at a perhaps significantly lower cost.

Fenwick:

Thanks for the encouragement

I am thinking that this system would be designed for cash/resource trades, however it would be realitively easy to plug this idea into a pre-exsisting lend-lease or diplomatic based system. An interesting idea might be trading minor diplomatic actions such as military access for units i.e. a bases for destroyers trade. (Although that one was a bit extreme).

 

[Zorgoth]

In my biased opinion, selling of ships is the most important and widespread use of selling weaponary, basically every nation that wasn't the US, UK, Italy, Japan, Germany, France, the Netherlands, Spain, Sweden, Norway, and Denmark had to buy ships from other countries. Also as I said before the premise of only being able to sell obsolete equipment is flawed as often sales where of the most advanced design of the time

Well, I would argue that almost as important was the purchase of airplanes. By the '30s the above mentioned list of ship producing countries is too long for airplane producing countries. Furthermore planes became obsolete much quicker than ships (excepting maybe subs).

 

[javiermcabo]

As far as we do not build planes and tanks, but DIVISIONS, I don't know how it could be implemented...

You could sell licenses though (techs).

Maybe it's OK with ships...

 

[unmerged(33694)]

As far as we do not build planes and tanks, but DIVISIONS, I don't know how it could be implemented...

You could sell licenses though (techs).

Maybe it's OK with ships...

Then maybe we call it equipment purchase instead of tank & planes purchase.

I think the point is to sell stuff that is produced

Or maybe not :wacko:

Well, I support this idea and trust PE that they will find the best way to implement it in the game once they decide to have equipment trade feature in HoI2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10

 

[TheFlemishDuck]

As far as we do not build planes and tanks, but DIVISIONS, I don't know how it could be implemented...

Why not? In Hoi a airplane devission represents 100 planes IIRC ,and there were many country's that bought planes over the 100's ,like Brazil (1100 planes of the USA) or many other country's ,same goes with armor.

@Fenwick and Diodeme ,thx for the proposition's ,although i do not tottaly understand Diodeme's proposition ,any proposition is good as it provides an alternative so making the possibilety of this feature larger.

 

[unmerged(33694)]

you tell'em

Why not? In Hoi a airplane devission represents 100 planes IIRC ,and there were many country's that bought planes over the 100's ,like Brazil (1100 planes of the USA) or many other country's ,same goes with armor.

@Fenwick and Diodeme ,thx for the proposition's ,although i do not tottaly understand Diodeme's proposition ,any proposition is good as it provides an alternative so making the possibilety of this feature larger.

Yeah, you tell'em, FlemishDuck!

I'm right with you on those alternating provisions to feature larger possibilities :wacko:

A constuctive discussion always brings results. If nothing else than the satisfaction on participation in such a good discussion :rofl:

 

[javiermcabo]

Why not? In Hoi a airplane devission represents 100 planes IIRC ,and there were many country's that bought planes over the 100's ,like Brazil (1100 planes of the USA) or many other country's ,same goes with armor.

I mean that when I produce a Pz division i'm building the tanks -certainly- but also the trucks, halftracks... everything in the division. Plus, the men I put in there to crew the whole thing. In fact I think the production delay also considers the training and gathering of my troops rather than just the assembly time of my tanks.

Do you think that I should sell the men along with the tanks????

The same for the air squadrons.

That's why i said that maybe it could work with ships (you deliver the ship, with no crew), but not with tanks or planes as we know them by now (who knows, maybe it will be changed, but I don't think so)

 

[TheFlemishDuck]

I mean that when I produce a Pz division i'm building the tanks -certainly- but also the trucks, halftracks... everything in the division. Plus, the men I put in there to crew the whole thing. In fact I think the production delay also considers the training and gathering of my troops rather than just the assembly time of my tanks.

Afcourse youre buying the trucks to ,lots of country's bought trucks from their material seller ,but since that you build those trucks to when you build a panzer devission ,when you sell it you sell the trucks also ,and thats not illogical most country's that bought foreign material also bought the support material for it.

Do you think that I should sell the men along with the tanks????

Absolutly not ,i clearly said 2 times earlier that if you buy a devission you should have a manpower reduction worth for that devission ,in addition that the bought devission should be in youre production pool for some time to train youre men to use that material.

The same for the air squadrons.

Indeed! A small manpower reduction when you buy it and the planes go in youre production pool for something like (for ex) 2IC for 60 days.

 

[javiermcabo]

Flemish

You don't get my point (though, this is fun)

What if...

I'm playing Hungary and I buy a german PzDiv with PzIV's.
I send my brand new unit to engage my enemies.
Of course, I win the battle (because it's me who is creating this example and I want to)
But anyway, I've taken lots of casualties.
Ready? I want to bring my division to full strength so...

a)I buy more tanks, trucks, etc, from Germany (how?) Maybe I could spend that money I have in reserves... oh, Germany is now producing PzV and they don't have PzIV stock left...
b)I use my home made WWI tanks? If so, what happens to my unit stats?
c)I can't reinforce my unit.

The combat values of a german armor division don't come only from the kind of tank they use (or at least I hope they don't). But from the tanks, the artillery, the light weapons...).

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Well, I would argue that almost as important was the purchase of airplanes. By the '30s the above mentioned list of ship producing countries is too long for airplane producing countries. Furthermore planes became obsolete much quicker than ships (excepting maybe subs).

I said biased, Indeed what you stated though was correct.

Diomedene: Well now that you explained how new stuff and ships can be done I agree! I'm personally hoping for a different contruction system then in HoI where you built units in a province as opposed to nowhere and then deploy them wherever you want, but that's a different topic.

As for javiermcabo, I think we all have to wait and see how different the reinforcing works compared to HoI, from what I can tell it looks like it might be done differently

 

[TheFlemishDuck]

What if... I'm playing Hungary and I buy a german PzDiv with PzIV's. I send my brand new unit to engage my enemies. Of course, I win the battle (because it's me who is creating this example and I want to) But anyway, I've taken lots of casualties. Ready? I want to bring my division to full strength so... a)I buy more tanks, trucks, etc, from Germany (how?) Maybe I could spend that money I have in reserves... oh, Germany is now producing PzV and they don't have PzIV stock left... b)I use my home made WWI tanks? If so, what happens to my unit stats? c)I can't reinforce my unit.

That my friend is really nitpicking.
Consider that the reinforce button automaticly raises such a host of questions and considerations anyway.
When Nationalist China in HOI reingorced it's air devissions ,where the heck did those planes come from? And the pilots ,shouldn't they been trained to?
When Germany gets a tiger devission to 1 strenght in HOI ,isn't the costs in supply's luaghable to restore the devission compared to the costs to produce a whole new devission?
And My battleship in HOI with 1 strentgh left is hapely "magicly" restoring in strenght in its port ,no resources needed ,one could ask how in heavens name a 1 Strenght ship would even manage to return to a port.

The thing is however IMO that in HOI "strenght" doesn't nessecarily reflect the amount of men and material in that devission ,rather it's combat potential.A 1 strentgh devission could easily still have much of it's material ,but lots of it's vehicle's are damaged or immobilized and can't be used for combat anymore ,some of the material is even just stuck somewhere in a ditch it tried to get over ,and many of the men needed to opperate the material are wounded ,as usual with an understrentgh devission in a war due to combat there is only 1/5 men killed compared to those wounded or just stunned.
As such supplies to such a devision rather reflect's repairs to the material or salvation of it and medical treatement to those wonded etc rather than replacement of pure material and men.Sure some material is bound to be destroyed ,just like in the Tiger devission at 1 strenght case ,but if you don't have to rebuild those tigers as Germany ,why should you have to rebuy youre panzer's?

The combat values of a german armor division don't come only from the kind of tank they use (or at least I hope they don't). But from the tanks, the artillery, the light weapons...).

Actually the combat value's of those devissions in game in HOI come purely from the model ,in Hoi if you improve youre infantry weapons and infantry artillery tech itt won't affect those panzer devissions at all neither.Unless it are specific armor tech's under the artillery tech screen like ammunition types.

 

[javiermcabo]

If you base the arguement in HoI, we're done

I mean, the fact of those reinforcement problems being ignored in HoI does not mean that they have to be brought even further in HoI2.
(Remember that at least, it is Germany who has the factories for that kind of tank, so even if it's poorly represented, it's easier than for them than for the hungarians to replace them)

We have all remarked those unrealistic things, and it's been said all around the forum, so maybe it will be improved.

As for the tanks, I prefer to think that a PzIV division is simply a better armed division than a PzIII one. Because -as you also know- the number of tanks in a division is not even near to 400.

 

[TheFlemishDuck]

I mean, the fact of those reinforcement problems being ignored in HoI does not mean that they have to be brought even further in HoI2. (Remember that at least, it is Germany who has the factories for that kind of tank, so even if it's poorly represented, it's easier than for them than for the hungarians to replace them)

Well you know i do not disagree that the HOI system isn't optimal ,youre point's make perfectly sense though however i doubt that this system of resupply will change much ,as providing a system that takes into account such considerations would be hard to simulate correctly and would easily go into micromanagment.

What i mean is that there will be always limmitations to the historical correctness of a game ,in the end you have to make simplifications as game producer to represent the situation as best as possible .
We don't know yet how in HOI2 the reinforce system will be modelled as such it's impossible for me to give propositions on how such considerations could be dealt with.

You know there are just so many considerations you could take when it comes to reinforcing ,going from unique parts certain material would need (Germany didn't really have good standardizations for a wide array of vehicle's) to the thought that many country's even used captured foreign material or mounted certain guns onto undercarriage's of captured vehicle's or halway own destroyed vehicle's ,or the use of horses to pull certain guns.
There was afcourse also the fact that actually no armor devission existed of one type of tank only ,most armor devissions composed of a small number of light tank's (usually used for recon and anti-infantry like PzII) ,mostly medium tanks and a small number of heavy tanks.And there are many other considerations.

In this sense ,while i never considered HOI's reinforce system as optimal it's still a relative good abbrevation of something that all considerd is very hard to model otherwise ,also when it comes to models of armor devissions.
Even then ,this didn't exclude that a country that bought material couldn't as thus produce it themself or atleast most of the parts for it (though at not such an effeciant rate as Germany woulda) ,or that they could be simply "creative" ,or just buy reinforcements from abroad.
Thus all considerd ,since the feature of weapons sales and buying would be nice ,and these problems being simplified anyway ,it wouldn't be that farfetched keeping the game limitations in consideration that Turkey for ex. could reinforce a tank devission in the same way that Germany would do it in game.

 

[javiermcabo]

So the only solution to our endless discussion goes through a different reinforcement system...