"But isn't the number of divisions bloated in HOI4 overall?"

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Mr.Bajskorv

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The games popularity only goes up year on year which I would take to mean the silent majority of people prefer it this way. Business wise its been a good choice for PDX and is unlikely to change in this iteration.

That's a rather silly logic. Just becouse the game populatiy goes up is taken as a proof that a certain game design is good or cant be improved.

With your logic.
Said pre MTG "No you shouldn't improve the naval, is works fine . The games popularity only goes up year on year which I would take to mean the silent majority of people prefer it this way. Business wise its been a good choice for PDX and is unlikely to change in this iteration."

If said before LR "No you shouldn't improve the suppression, is works fine . The games popularity only goes up year on year which I would take to mean the silent majority of people prefer it this way. Business wise its been a good choice for PDX and is unlikely to change in this iteration"

That logic doesn't hold up. Not a least bit.
 
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I hate too knock PDX as I love HoI.
I was upset when version IV came out and found the game was so simplified and the gfx was not much of an improvement from version III.
Then we get to pay for expansions that make the game some what more like it was.

Edit: I do recall several polls taken for MP vs SP micro man. I'm sure PDX reacted to please the majority.
So this is the opinion of a SP micro manage fan. My beef is with the game industry as a whole doing the same type of thing.
Pc war games turn into something that can be played with a xbox controller and mmo's all become pay to win thru gambling.
This is not what I invested in a gaming PC for.
 
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Increasing manpower requirements in regards to combat support units is a good idea, but I am afraid it will not do enough. Should players have to sink more manpower to staff hospitals, repair railroads, and man static AA? Absolutely. HOI4 does a poor job of showing the "rear" area units that were not captured by Hollywood and historical documentaries, which instead, spotlight and romanticize the frontline combat personnel. Maintenance units, field hospitals, signals, and logistical services should require more personnel than currently represented in the game. Again, however, I do not think this will be enough.

To seriously limit the size of militaries with historical constraints, HOI4 needs to overhaul its economy system and that is asking alot -perhaps even a recode of the Clausewitz engine. What made Hitler uncomfortable about deploying a massive 3 million man army in Operation Barbarossa was economics. He knew that Germany could only support such a massive military force temporarily, even though only a small portion of it was motorized. This was because every soldier drafted to the front, is one fewer, healthy working male to work in the factories, farms, and offices of Germany. HOI4 does not adequately penalize conscription. Every new division should decrease production by a little, but in HOI4, nothing happens to production unless you change conscription law. Fascists can make the citizenry, banks, universities, and corporations cough up all available capital to pay for the war effort, and make up the difference by leveraged borrowing that increased the money supply. Hyperinflation was avoided through draconian price control efforts. Therefore, paying for such a massive military was not that big of a problem for Axis and Comintern. However, resources were still a constraint. When the Reich raised new divisions, there were less workers in the mines, factories, and workshops that provided the raw materials and manufactured equipment needed for those divisions in the first place. This was not that big of a problem early in the war, because the Reich could conscript German workers to train as reservists, then send them back to their civilian jobs, then be mobilized for a short Blitzkrieg campaign, then return them back to work again. As a result, Germans were themselves building the weapons and ammunition that they would later use themselves. However, for Operation Barbarossa, Hitler needed the entirety of the manpower pool, including the already trained reservists, in the field - immediately and for more than just a month. Of 7 million men called up for service in the field, 3 million were earmarked for combat units in the Eastern Front. Hitler expected a short campaign and hoped to immediately downsize the Army to just one third of its initial strength, and send the soldiers back to the home front and start manufacturing the weapons for an air and sea war against what he saw as the bigger threats, the industrial civilizations of U.S, Britain, and her colonies. As a result, when victory did not arrive on the eastern front, this spelled disaster and panic in Hitler's inner circle. He now needed more men on the front to hold back the Soviets, but also more men in the factories to meet the massive ammunition and weapon procurement requirements of the Wehrmacht. Unfortunately, more for one would mean less for the other. The Nazi solution was extensive exploitation of slave labor, justified by their racial dogma. More and more of the Reich's armaments were being made by non-Germans, POWs, and workers abducted from occupied territories, working in harsh conditions to provide the material for the Germans being sent to fight. Some were paid and some were just slaves. The question is, does the community want the developers to model this? It seems it's already been abstracted somewhat through La Resistance's system of compliance and Occupation Laws, and there's already conscription penalties that modify factory output. My opinion is that this current system is inadequate, but a realistic system that matches the historical narrative described above may be hard to stomach. HOI4 players enjoy min-maxing production. Implementing these historical economic constraints would then require HOI4 players to min-max policies of mass-murder and slave-labor. We're potentially opening a can of worms here, and it's a touchy subject. One could argue that the devs should have no problem modeling this because we can look to Stellaris for examples of this brutality, but you have to consider that HOI4's theme is based on a world war where these events did happen in real life, and only 80 years ago . . . not some fantasy galaxy with aliens - but with real people. I'm not sure if this community is willing to go down this path.


Rearmament meant that German workers and families were rationing necessities and foregoing luxuries so that Germany industry could build bombs, bullets, artillery shells, and aircraft instead of consumer products. The lack of consumer goods, the undertaking of massive austerity, and the sacrificing of personal income to tax hikes to pay for the war, were all done willingly and enthusiastically (somewhat) because Hitler promised the German people an increase in the standard of living in the future (Lebensraum and Autarky by seizing resources in the East). This means that the civilian population can accept immense sacrifices and maintain stability only if they are convinced that the war will be short and temporary, and pay-off massively for their future generations. There should be stability penalties for offensive wars that generate too many dead or last too long, especially in proportion to the size of the military and the extent of conscription.
 
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Increasing manpower requirements in regards to combat support units is a good idea, but I am afraid it will not do enough. Should players have to sink more manpower to staff hospitals, repair railroads, and man static AA? Absolutely. HOI4 does a poor job of showing the "rear" area units that were not captured by Hollywood and historical documentaries, which instead, spotlight and romanticize the frontline combat personnel. Maintenance units, field hospitals, signals, and logistical services should require more personnel than currently represented in the game. Again, however, I do not think this will be enough.

To seriously limit the size of militaries with historical constraints, HOI4 needs to overhaul its economy system and that is asking alot -perhaps even a recode of the Clausewitz engine. What made Hitler uncomfortable about deploying a massive 3 million man army in Operation Barbarossa was economics. He knew that Germany could only support such a massive military force temporarily, even though only a small portion of it was motorized. This was because every soldier drafted to the front, is one fewer, healthy working male to work in the factories, farms, and offices of Germany. HOI4 does not adequately penalize conscription. Every new division should decrease production by a little, but in HOI4, nothing happens to production unless you change conscription law. Fascists can make the citizenry, banks, universities, and corporations cough up all available capital to pay for the war effort, and make up the difference by leveraged borrowing that increased the money supply. Hyperinflation was avoided through draconian price control efforts. Therefore, paying for such a massive military was not that big of a problem for Axis and Comintern. However, resources were still a constraint. When the Reich raised new divisions, there were less workers in the mines, factories, and workshops that provided the raw materials and manufactured equipment needed for those divisions in the first place. This was not that big of a problem early in the war, because the Reich could conscript German workers to train as reservists, then send them back to their civilian jobs, then be mobilized for a short Blitzkrieg campaign, then return them back to work again. As a result, Germans were themselves building the weapons and ammunition that they would later use themselves. However, for Operation Barbarossa, Hitler needed the entirety of the manpower pool, including the already trained reservists, in the field - immediately and for more than just a month. Of 7 million men called up for service in the field, 3 million were earmarked for combat units in the Eastern Front. Hitler expected a short campaign and hoped to immediately downsize the Army to just one third of its initial strength, and send the soldiers back to the home front and start manufacturing the weapons for an air and sea war against what he saw as the bigger threats, the industrial civilizations of U.S, Britain, and her colonies. As a result, when victory did not arrive on the eastern front, this spelled disaster and panic in Hitler's inner circle. He now needed more men on the front to hold back the Soviets, but also more men in the factories to meet the massive ammunition and weapon procurement requirements of the Wehrmacht. Unfortunately, more for one would mean less for the other. The Nazi solution was extensive exploitation of slave labor, justified by their racial dogma. More and more of the Reich's armaments were being made by non-Germans, POWs, and workers abducted from occupied territories, working in harsh conditions to provide the material for the Germans being sent to fight. Some were paid and some were just slaves. The question is, does the community want the developers to model this? It seems it's already been abstracted somewhat through La Resistance's system of compliance and Occupation Laws, and there's already conscription penalties that modify factory output. My opinion is that this current system is inadequate, but a realistic system that matches the historical narrative described above may be hard to stomach. HOI4 players enjoy min-maxing production. Implementing these historical economic constraints would then require HOI4 players to min-max policies of mass-murder and slave-labor. We're potentially opening a can of worms here, and it's a touchy subject. One could argue that the devs should have no problem modeling this because we can look to Stellaris for examples of this brutality, but you have to consider that HOI4's theme is based on a world war where these events did happen in real life, and only 80 years ago . . . not some fantasy galaxy with aliens - but with real people. I'm not sure if this community is willing to go down this path.


Rearmament meant that German workers and families were rationing necessities and foregoing luxuries so that Germany industry could build bombs, bullets, artillery shells, and aircraft instead of consumer products. The lack of consumer goods, the undertaking of massive austerity, and the sacrificing of personal income to tax hikes to pay for the war, were all done willingly and enthusiastically (somewhat) because Hitler promised the German people an increase in the standard of living in the future (Lebensraum and Autarky by seizing resources in the East). This means that the civilian population can accept immense sacrifices and maintain stability only if they are convinced that the war will be short and temporary, and pay-off massively for their future generations. There should be stability penalties for offensive wars that generate too many dead or last too long, especially in proportion to the size of the military and the extent of conscription.
Current mechanics allows human Germany to fight and win Barbarossa with using <2 million man, even if you heavily boost allies and Soviet AI.

You would also come to Barbarossa with <30k casualties after taking over Europe, and have to spent less MP on garrisons than you get in collaborators, especially if you run collaboration government on Poland, France and Spain.

Did I also mention that German focus tree allows Germany to poppuet Slovakia, Croatia, rest of Yugoslavia, Hungary and Romania, which alleviates manpower issue even more.

So, until player has to use those higher conscription laws, there is no issue. Mechanics need to allow German war machine to be grinded to a halt militarily first, then economic system should deliver slow killing blow. Cruently Germany can fight with 20-50:1 casualty ratio, and that doesn't change, despite the fact that Germany could only sustain it's great showing for a month or 2, then if enemy wouldn't collapse, it's efficiency ground to a halt.
 

ConceptEagle

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Current mechanics allows human Germany to fight and win Barbarossa with using <2 million man, even if you heavily boost allies and Soviet AI.

You would also come to Barbarossa with <30k casualties after taking over Europe, and have to spent less MP on garrisons than you get in collaborators, especially if you run collaboration government on Poland, France and Spain.

Did I also mention that German focus tree allows Germany to poppuet Slovakia, Croatia, rest of Yugoslavia, Hungary and Romania, which alleviates manpower issue even more.

So, until player has to use those higher conscription laws, there is no issue. Mechanics need to allow German war machine to be grinded to a halt militarily first, then economic system should deliver slow killing blow. Cruently Germany can fight with 20-50:1 casualty ratio, and that doesn't change, despite the fact that Germany could only sustain it's great showing for a month or 2, then if enemy wouldn't collapse, it's efficiency ground to a halt.
As I said, economics and military ability are in tandem when there is an inverse relationship between the size of your fielded military and your industrial capacity. Unless you conscript foreign labor, improve productivity per capita, or both, a larger military force will decrease the labor pool that is needed to supply those in the military. The fact that HOI4 allows players to ignore this concern as long as they do not hit those manpower ceilings dictated by conscription laws is an ahistorical oversimplification by itself. Your explanation of how easy it is for a player-Germany to roll over AI-USSR is a separate conversation.
 
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Krey_Lollipop

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Sorry if I'm late to the party.

In another post I kinda toyed with the idea of removing most frontline infantry altogheter.

Kinda like what was done with garrisons actually.

This would presumably cut down on visible troops for all nations, though presumably it could also affect simulation speed as countries no longer have to manage frontline troops in the same way.

It would however change the feel of the game quite dramatically, though I think the level of strategy would still be preserved.
 
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Harin

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Sorry if I'm late to the party.

In another post I kinda toyed with the idea of removing most frontline infantry altogheter.

Kinda like what was done with garrisons actually.

This would presumably cut down on visible troops for all nations, though presumably it could also affect simulation speed as countries no longer have to manage frontline troops in the same way.

It would however change the feel of the game quite dramatically, though I think the level of strategy would still be preserved.

This is not a bad idea, especially for fronts the player chooses to play like this. Fronts the player is interested in, maybe he could have the option to see all the units and control as much as he wanted? In your idea, does the CPU still run combat as normal, just with invisible divisions, or does the combat mechanics change? If divisions are simply invisible, does that reduce the workload on the CPU, or does it stay the same? What graphical feedback would such a front give the player so he knows what is going on?

Your idea brings up some interesting questions.
 
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This is not a bad idea, especially for fronts the player chooses to play like this. Fronts the player is interested in, maybe he could have the option to see all the units and control as much as he wanted? In your idea, does the CPU still run combat as normal, just with invisible divisions, or does the combat mechanics change? If divisions are simply invisible, does that reduce the workload on the CPU, or does it stay the same? What graphical feedback would such a front give the player so he knows what is going on?

Your idea brings up some interesting questions.

I actually simulate this in a way when I play. Sometimes in mid to late game, it slows down so much it's practically stopped. When this happens I zoom out far enough so that I cannot see the individual divisions and the animations anymore. Then the game speed goes back to normal. I can then zoom in and continue to play at normal speed for several minutes. I like to pause the game often or go down to Speed 1 for a few minutes so I don't miss anything, so I'm usually not playing at high speeds anyway.

So the CPU, combat, and everything else is still running when I am zoomed out. There must be some relationship in my PC between the graphics processing and the CPU resources allocated to the game but I can't explain what that is. So for me, just making most of the divisions and animations invisible as a game option would work well on my PC.

I have a 7 year old PC that had good specs when I bought it but needs to be replaced soon. Windows 10 actually helped it a lot and postponed my replacement.
 
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Krey_Lollipop

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This is not a bad idea, especially for fronts the player chooses to play like this. Fronts the player is interested in, maybe he could have the option to see all the units and control as much as he wanted? In your idea, does the CPU still run combat as normal, just with invisible divisions, or does the combat mechanics change? If divisions are simply invisible, does that reduce the workload on the CPU, or does it stay the same? What graphical feedback would such a front give the player so he knows what is going on?

Your idea brings up some interesting questions.

Being able to control all units on a front you're interested in might be doable, but I'm not certain as it could prove unbalanced. However, in my idea you'd still be in charge of say tanks and special forces, providing at least that amount of unit management. This is where my idea might fall a bit flat, as I'm sure many players love being in control of all those infantry divisions.

If frontlines are done the same way as garrisons it would all be abstract; no invisible units. You'd instead pick a template, set their priority and select a strategy. Presumably combat could remain the same, but then the enemy divisions would only "exist" during combat. It could also be handled in some even more abstract way, with no combat at all, but that might be a bridge too far.

CPU should be unaffected by whether or not divisions are visible (however, I've been told this isn't necessarily the case in HoI4), as it is the GPU in a system that handles everything graphical. However, by removing these divisions from the game-world, performance might increase as the AI no longer needs to micro-manage all those divisions.

In terms of graphical feedback, we have several systems in place already which do a good job of telling players what's going on. What I would add however is some form of indicator as to what a frontline is up to strategically and how it is doing logistically. So an underequipped frontline could for instance be dashed, and if you've ordered the front to advance it could have little arrows going out.
 
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Vlad123

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There is also a problem on the CPU: Both with the old system, and with the one after LaR, for compilance / resistance the CPU load is a lot, because EVERY DAY it has to calculate the compilance / resistance of EVERY province occupied in the game. If, on the other hand, he were to calculate it less (every week) but adjusting everything to the new "time" it would be less load for the CPU. Then of course there is to solve the problem that the resistance is relieved, and it is too difficult to raise it and you can only do a limited number of missions because you have TOO FEW SPIES! Maybe a good fix would be:
1) the spy network is done as fast as it decays.
2) the espionage rede decays as slowly as it does slowly.
Because now it takes you almost 1 year to get it at 90-100% but it takes a few months (maximum 1/2) to completely collapse, if not a few days! Which is too unbalanced.
 

demon72

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We should discuss about menpower at arms or at least Batallions - Division is the wrong "number" as a Division can be everything between 1.000 and 32.500 soldiers in HOI4.
 
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The AI isnt strong enough to be limited in numbers, Mass wave attacks are all it can do. If you limited the numbers it can field, You'd only need a couple good encirclements and you're in Berlin.

In fairness, that's what happens now when I play the Soviets against the AI.

Vicky2 had small standing armies.

In the early game, sure.

By the time colonial empires were built, I'd have grotesquely large standing armies as Germany, France, Russia, Austria, and even Italy.

In fact, most of my strategies in Vic2 were built around creating heavily populated colonial empires for both economic reasons (need POPs to buy my stuff) and for military reasons (need soldier POPs for a standing army large enough to win Great Wars).
 
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