Burgundy->France->HRE strategy

[calvinhobbeslik]

The thread about countries to play a PUing game with made me want to play Burgundy and form France and the HRE. I would like to do all my missions(while vassalizing electors who ally my victims, I guess), then force a PU on France, annex France (with cores and all its buildings), form France (for l'etat c'est moi and Italian missions). Then I'd like to conquer Northern Italy with Italian Ambitions (how much should I be able to take in one day?). By now, I'm hopefully HRE and I want to unite it.

1. Does France just eventually get a weak heir, allowing me to PU them? Is there a better way than just waiting for them to get a weak heir? Is it difficult to defeat them in a war?

2. For the Italian missions, I want to conquer as much of Northern Italy as possible. How do I arrange my wars so that I can do this?

3. Before forming HRE, I want to PU and inherit (with cores and buildings) as many countries in the HRE as possible, so that when I form HRE, I get as many cores as possible. But when I claim thrones, I get relations hits wiht all my royal marriages. So how do I get lots of PUs? Is there a strategy besides spamming gifts?

4. Best sliders/NIs? More specifically, should I be mercantilistic (and aristocratic) or free trade/plutocratic?

 

[Ottonianesque]

1). Usually it does due to WE and revolts and all sorts of things; I've very rarely seen a stable France. A neat and easy trick is to release nations and then use the Forge claims mission on them because they have no heir, so you can PU many of the larger sections of France before you go for the nation itself meaning it won't try and break it away as it absorbs vassals and gains force limit (make it keep its vassals so you don't need to bother with dealing with them yourself).

2). I'd actually go for Southern Italy for that Mission, as you'll have cores on all Northern Italian states cores through inheritance anyhow, which is strictly speaking more efficient in building up and retaining cores.

3). This is quite easy, however you might need to waste an NI on it; espionage - you need to perform the mission 'forge claims', if there is a pretender rebel succeeds for example you can do this mission (Setting your mission settings to a nation gaining a new king is really helpful to determine when you can claim a throne).
Additionally, in regards to claiming a throne its worthwhile to do it as soon as you can a new king, as you can 'burn' legitimacy - the trick is to maintain only one royal marriage at a time, claim then press and get the CB - I think there is a bug regarding this in the latest patch, if you are leading a PU with a nation with that you haven't had more than one ruler leading when you press another claim through diplomacy you get the relationship loss for that PU partner as well because the royal marriage flag isn't cleared.
So I prefer to get all of those I can claim through that method, usually 3-4 at most per ruler, and then get those newly acquired nations in an alliance ASAP so as to prevent them from breaking free.
But you will generally want Gilded Iconography and the Grand Marshal advisor for this because it means you can repeatably make claims before you get a heir or you can ignore the heir you already have before reducing the time it takes to get back to max legitimacy.

4). I can't really comment on, but mercantilism is better for a HRE power because of spies and because you'll likely be a continental power in any case - although free-trade is 'strictly' better income wise it will hamstring in terms of PU expansion.

 

[JKNUBZ]

1.) France starts with a weak heir. It's quite possible to PU them in the first few years of the game. Failing this, yes, you just have to wait until you can either claim their throne or use the fabricate claims spy mission on them. Heirs are random. It is not difficult to beat them in a war--they'll come at you with a few large stacks, but if you concentrate your forces and use terrain, it's easy--Burgundy has better sliders than France, and you're not as dumb as the AI.

2.) Italian Ambition will not fire if you own any provinces in the Italian region. So, you need to use that mission before any other italian expansion. I'd agree that you should use it on the pope or one of the sicilies, since you can inherit most of the northern italian provinces.

3.) Use spies (granted by event or the espionage NI) to fabricate claims and avoid the relations hit. Otherwise, just be sparing with who you RM--only marry your target and other unimportant countries.

4.) For NIs, do what you need. As a strong burgundy it hardly matters since you'll be such a beast so early on. For sliders, you start as free trade/aristocratic, which is really nice, except for the lack of spies. Free trade is just too good for your economy to pass up. You can go mercantile much later, but at that point you've already crushed any possible opposition. Aristocracy gives you bonus shock (which is killer) and more diplomats to spam at all the HRE minors, not to mention giving you access to the Order of the Golden Fleece decision, which is quite nice. If you get moved towards plutocracy by event later, that's just bonus money (which you won't even need as free-trade burgundy).

 

[cywang86]

1. Pounce on them asap, if you've failed it though, just have to get lucky or re-release vassal and try again.

2. Because the mission will keep coming back when you don't have any province in the Italian region, you can repeatedly trigger the mission, annex province for core, and sell said provinces to local vassals until all of Italy is under the control of maximum of 5 vassals. At which point, re-trigger the mission and you can spend your 5 diplomats and diplo-annex them all. Just watch out for your prestige, due to all the uncontested claims.

3. Don't Royal Marriage unless you can Claim Throne. Once you've claimed the throne, break it before DoW. This way you can keep your royal marriage count at 0 until you see a chance to Claim Throne. Being the Papal Controller helps a lot in this regard, as it removes the stability penalty for breaking any royal marriages. So stay narrowminded until you think you can ditch the Pope.

4. I wouldn't worry about mercantilism vs free trade too much, as I prefer spending my slider movements for full centralization, aristocracy, narrowminded, and free subject during the past 100 years or so.
Just make sure you stay Aristocracy for all diplomats you'll go through from bribe relation and form/break royal marriages and the such.

 

[calvinhobbeslik]

1. Pounce on them asap, if you've failed it though, just have to get lucky or re-release vassal and try again.

2. Because the mission will keep coming back when you don't have any province in the Italian region, you can repeatedly trigger the mission, annex province for core, and sell said provinces to local vassals until all of Italy is under the control of maximum of 5 vassals. At which point, re-trigger the mission and you can spend your 5 diplomats and diplo-annex them all. Just watch out for your prestige, due to all the uncontested claims.

3. Don't Royal Marriage unless you can Claim Throne. Once you've claimed the throne, break it before DoW. This way you can keep your royal marriage count at 0 until you see a chance to Claim Throne. Being the Papal Controller helps a lot in this regard, as it removes the stability penalty for breaking any royal marriages. So stay narrowminded until you think you can ditch the Pope.

4. I wouldn't worry about mercantilism vs free trade too much, as I prefer spending my slider movements for full centralization, aristocracy, narrowminded, and free subject during the past 100 years or so.
Just make sure you stay Aristocracy for all diplomats you'll go through from bribe relation and form/break royal marriages and the such.

Why would I break a RM before DOWing to claim a throne? I take a stab hit of 1 either way.

 

[cywang86]

Because forming the PU doesn't break the royal marriage. (yes it's stupid, but it's how the game works) So in order to not suffer further relation hit from future Claim Throne, you have to break the Royal Marriage somehow.
Since you're breaking it, might as well do it before the DoW so you're only getting 1 stab hit stead of 2 from breaking it after the DoW.

Edit: forgot to mention that being the papal controller also give you the benefit of throwing excommunications around. Since the Pope will hate quite a few of the minors around him, it's a safe bet that you can score many 25% infamy annex/vassalize this way.

 

[Boon63]

1- Burgundy and France have quite equal military power so it's rather easy to beat France early in the game. You just have to be carefull with France's allies.
2- I usually full annex a 4 or 5 province country (Savoy for insyance). The multi-peace-deals-on-the-same-day trick is a bit gamey imo
3- The best strategy in order to maintain good relations with other countries is to have only one RM at a time and use a lot of spies You can 'claim throne' when a heir has low legitimacy (or there is no heir at all) and 'forge claim' when a ruler has low legitimacy (<50) (or regency council for an underaged ruler with low legitimacy (<33))
4- I would go for Aristocracy (for diplos), Centralisation and Mercantilism (for spies). Narrowminded is good for keeping the catholic faith as any change of state religion break alliances and get a -100 relation. It also helps becoming Papal Controller (see below). Free Subject then, in order to balance the tech costs. Put a maximum of countries in your sphere of influence as it boots your diplomatic skill (nice for relation in the long run and for becoming HRE in the short run).

Because forming the PU doesn't break the royal marriage. (yes it's stupid, but it's how the game works) So in order to not suffer further relation hit from future Claim Throne, you have to break the Royal Marriage somehow.
Since you're breaking it, might as well do it before the DoW so you're only getting 1 stab hit stead of 2 from breaking it after the DoW.

Won't the CB 'Claim Throne' disappear after breaking the RM ?

Edit: forgot to mention that being the papal controller also give you the benefit of throwing excommunications around. Since the Pope will hate quite a few of the minors around him, it's a safe bet that you can score many 25% infamy annex/vassalize this way.

As stated in the wiki, here : the Papal controller can break RM without suffering the stab hit. I've never tried to be sure it's true, though.

 

[unmerged(583830)]

3. Before forming HRE, I want to PU and inherit (with cores and buildings) as many countries in the HRE as possible, so that when I form HRE, I get as many cores as possible. But when I claim thrones, I get relations hits wiht all my royal marriages. So how do I get lots of PUs? Is there a strategy besides spamming gifts?

If you are a strong country like Burgundy(who got France first) not unlike some german minor I don't think you should waste your time and energy getting PUs and waiting inheritance because if you form HRE you should get cores anyway. More punctually after renovatio imperii you get the cores of your neighbours.


So you want to max your core gains by forming HRE? Annex some OPMs to make every member to your neighbour instead!
Don't know about the buildings though.

4. If you want lots of conquering you should go for mercantile/aristocratic. But it's the early game so you should max centralization first.
NIs? I would pick Military Drill/National Bank as usual then maybe Unam Sanctum/Church Attendenc Duty/QFTNW if planning to colonize.
Unam Sanctum is very important for the HRE because of it's CB to convert for imperial authority.

If i were you I would take an ambassador for the HRE election metagame. Plus you get slightly more relation/year.

1. You should have and maintain some strong ally (maybe Castille? or England?) from day 1 to defeat France. Plus you should take Military Drill first!

 

[calvinhobbeslik]

If I use the "force religious unity" diplomatic option on a heretical nation, and they refuse to convert back, do I get cores on their provinces?

 

[ByeNow]

I failed in that i pued France to early and they didn't have time to annex vassals, need to wait 50 years for some of them to core now.

 

[calvinhobbeslik]

If you are a strong country like Burgundy(who got France first) not unlike some german minor I don't think you should waste your time and energy getting PUs and waiting inheritance because if you form HRE you should get cores anyway. More punctually after renovatio imperii you get the cores of your neighbours.


So you want to max your core gains by forming HRE? Annex some OPMs to make every member to your neighbour instead!
Don't know about the buildings though.

But if I annex them in wars, I'll get infamy (which makes members less likely to vote for reforms), the unlawful imperial territory modifier, and the provinces I annex will lose all their buildings...

 

[calvinhobbeslik]

I played for a couple fo decades, and here's where I am: I've done all my missions and annexed all my cores (except Calais). I allied England and joined them in a war with France, which may have been a mistake since England made France release all its vassals as well as release Champagne/Normandy as independent nations. I've PUed France and Champagne and vassalized Holland, Kologne, Trier, and Lorraine. Normandy, Berry, and Oreleans still hold provinces I need to form France, so I may have to just annex them and wait for cores...

I've vassalized 2 electors, so I probably need 1 or 2 more. How do I get CBs on them and the French minors so that I can DOW without losing stability hits? And when I become Emperor, how do I get enough IA to pass reforms?

 

[unmerged(583830)]

But if I annex them in wars, I'll get infamy (which makes members less likely to vote for reforms), the unlawful imperial territory modifier, and the provinces I annex will lose all their buildings...

You should do it as last act before the final two decisions to get less infamy.
Can't argue with the building though.

And when I become Emperor, how do I get enough IA to pass reforms?

Unam Sanctum's Purging of Heresy CB will be usefull after 1495 when the protestantism is beginning to spread. Until that answering calls, imperial ban CB+imperial liberation CB and fighting hordes will get you IA.

 

[Boon63]

If I use the "force religious unity" diplomatic option on a heretical nation, and they refuse to convert back, do I get cores on their provinces?

Nope. You only get a casus belli that make the religious conversion cheaper (iirc). You also get some Imperial Authority (+10) which balances the loss from having a HRE member converting to an heretical faith (-10).

A good way to raise diplomatic relation and get some IA is to liberate annexed country (for instance Pisa and Siena from Milan, Hamburg from Hansa, Tyrol and Styria from Austria).The 'Bill of Rights' NI provides a 'Liberation' CB on every country which can liberate a country, not very usefull if you're the Imperator though. During this wars, try to vassalize electors allied to your main target. The religious unity CB can provides you others wars.
Try to recover imperial territories from extern nation (Denmark, Poland, Teutonic Order/Prussia, Sweden, and sometimes Castille or England, etc...), you'll get IA and a core on these provinces that way.
If you need some extra IA points, you can add cored provinces to the HRE (with a provincial decision that costs one magistrate)

In the same time, try to PU french minors (as you'll get core on french culture provinces once inherited).
That done try to raise your relations with a majority of HRE members (don't RM if you still plan to PU a lot of countries) and defend the Empire.
I read somewhere that releasing some of your own HRE vassals provides IA. Never tried this though.

 

[cywang86]

Nope. You only get a casus belli that make the religious conversion cheaper (iirc). You also get some Imperial Authority (+10) which balances the loss from having a HRE member converting to an heretical faith (-10).

Oh it more than balances if you just let IA sit at 0 until you have 5 targets. Convert them all, and instantly ask for a reform. Pretty much free IA

As for those minors, turn them into vassals, diplo-annex them all, and sell the provinces to France, who is already your PU and will grant you cores once you inherit.
There's also the annex OPM mission that grant free core, but only available when you're not at war and when both parties aren't in the HRE. Should be useful for those French minors.

 

[calvinhobbeslik]

Okay, I've just formed France and annexed a few minors. I'm trying to figure out what to do about Italy. I have the annex Genoa mission, and I got a core on Nice by a boundary dispute. Genoa is allied with Milan, Savoie, Sicily, and Naples, as well as Bourbonais(which I also want to annex). In addition, I have cores on English continental holdings, and they have provinces in Italy.

So if I had the Italian Ambitions mission, I would simultanous DOW Genoa and England and try to take as many provinces in Italy as possible. 2 problems with this:

1. I don't have the mission. If I annex Genoa right now, I will never get the mission. Also, the mission has a small change of firing (5) compared to the annex Genoa/Milan missions(1000).
2. Each province is 4 infamy for province, so I'd like to wait to say L'etat c'est moi and get the Imperialism CB. But that may take another few decades.

So how do I make the Italian Ambitions mission show up if I have much much more prioritized missions that involve me annexing Italian provinces?

 

[Boon63]

So how do I make the Italian Ambitions mission show up if I have much much more prioritized missions that involve me annexing Italian provinces?

Both 'Conquer Milan" and 'Annex Genoa' missions need a shared boundary with Milan or Genoa (see wiki). Can you sell any of your CORED province to Savoy (for instance) in order to avoid being neighbour with Milan or Genoa ? You'd get these provinces back later.

 

[calvinhobbeslik]

Both 'Conquer Milan" and 'Annex Genoa' missions need a shared boundary with Milan or Genoa (see wiki). Can you sell any of your CORED province to Savoy (for instance) in order to avoid being neighbour with Milan or Genoa ? You'd get these provinces back later.

I don't think Provence has cored yet (France didn't get to core it before I inherited them).

 

[cywang86]

Savoy can't exist either, as France gets the conquer Savoy mission just like Milan and Genoa. And Savoy is part of the Italian region.

You'd have to vassalize someone and sell everything in Savoy region to him.

Sardinia is a good target, as you can diplo-vassalize him, and he's part of the Italian region so you can diplo-annex him for Italian Ambition, too.
Switzerland isn't terrible either, but you'd have to do it through war as he's republic and not small enough yet.

Btw, you should release Provence, because there's annex Provence mission that grant core on Provence and Anjou (lololol)

 

[calvinhobbeslik]

Savoy can't exist either, as France gets the conquer Savoy mission just like Milan and Genoa. And Savoy is part of the Italian region.

You'd have to vassalize someone and sell everything in Savoy region to him.

Sardinia is a good target, as you can diplo-vassalize him, and he's part of the Italian region so you can diplo-annex him for Italian Ambition, too.
Switzerland isn't terrible either, but you'd have to do it through war as he's republic and not small enough yet.

Btw, you should release Provence, because there's annex Provence mission that grant core on Provence and Anjou (lololol)

The Savoy mission only fires when Savoy is my vassal...