Burgundy and its weak economy

[BrokenRifle]

The reason i'm making this post is regarded more towards MP. For SP burgundy is fine as AI is AI.. however in mp the fact that you have to wait 50 long years before you can annex your unions (who by the way sit on all your best income lands) can be annexed you will sit on a pretty horrible economy.. you can barely afford a 20 stack leaving you hopelessly helpless vs a france who allies either england or castile, (sure you can ally either england or castile yourself whichever one he ally take unless he allies both) and before austria, but now with the nerfed Austria, the Austrian player is often too busy fighting hungary/bohemia/poland/ottos to be able to come to your aid. now i dont think the game should be ballanced around MP but i do think its quite off that the economy of burgundy is what it is, and while i think its great that non european nations have gotten some much needed focus and attention i do feel some european ones could use it as well.. such as burgundy.

Perhaps a unique monarchy for burgundy regarding his unions could help fix burgundies horrible economy?

 

[Shinkuro Yukinari]

Burgundy is kinda made to be annexed by Austria(or Spain). Burgundy buffs can easily lead to absurd situations with the Inheritance event

 

[PhoenixG]

If you including all you vassals units and let them to attach to you they have in total more units than France.
Burgundy isn't that weak as it looks, need to control your vassals.

 

[jdavis86]

For starters, you probably have to settle for only one advisor at first. Maybe 2 since Philip starts as well advised, but he doesn't last long.

Otherwise you have to be opportunistic with ducat goal wars. For example, if you target Calais from England, you can usually get war score high enough to take it as well as war reparations. Or rivaling other vulnerable nations at start to just cash grab. Things like that .

Depending on how alliances of MP game start, opening on Liege as Burgundy is a much stronger start than it used to be. That can get you some ducats too depending on your ability to separately peace out other HRE nations. Also, Burgundy's idea set may be better suited to go full merc and no professionalism, so don't spend ducats drilling imo.

 

[mudwig]

Burgundy is kinda made to be annexed by Austria(or Spain). Burgundy buffs can easily lead to absurd situations with the Inheritance event

The Burgundian inheritance is one of the worst instances of forced historicity in the entire game ( along with the Iberian Union ). I usually go into the events folder and delete them. There's absolutely no reason, form a 1444 start, that those events should have to happen as they did. The Hungarian Inheritance is a less contentious because Ladislaus the Posthumous already exists at game start and has a claim to the Hungarian throne, but the other two are simply a free lunch for Castile and Austria to force them to follow historical paths.

I've played Burgundy fairly frequently and they aren't exactly the most difficult country to play. You just need to do the following...

Make sure your vassals support you against larger foes.

Unless rivaled by them, Ally Austria and Castile.

Take Barrois as early as possible to connect your lands.

Watch your AE with the Imperial princes. Don't be greedy!

Attack England when France does and take what you can. Don't be greedy!

Attack France when Castile, England or Austria does and take what you can. continue to not be greedy!

Take money in every peace deal. Be greedy!

I would like to see AI Burgundy survive a bit more often than never though. Because they never do.

 

[wingren013]

The Burgundian inheritance is one of the worst instances of forced historicity in the entire game ( along with the Iberian Union ). I usually go into the events folder and delete them. There's absolutely no reason, form a 1444 start, that those events should have to happen as they did.

Uh there totally is. The same reason that Burgundy owns a bunch of land in the low countries is the same reason that Burgundy would be split between the Emperor and the French King on the death of it's heirless ruler. Burgundy ruled it's Imperial possessions as a vassal of the Holy Roman Emperor and was governed by the laws of the Emperor. And Phillip the Bold was the son of a French King and a vassal of France, as long as the Burgundian duke died heirless their French possessions would revert to a De Valois King of France.

 

[Orkonkel]

The Duke was not heirless. He had a daughter.

 

[wingren013]

The Duke was not heirless. He had a daughter.

The important part was a male heir. That's why Louis XI was able to declare the Duchy abolished.

 

[bbqftw]

If you including all you vassals units and let them to attach to you

good joke!

It is already a nightmare in single player dealing with attach, I can only imagine the stress of MP players living or dying on whether their unions decide that sieging the ass-end of Lithuania is more important than attaching while on supportive attitude.

 

[mudwig]

Uh there totally is. The same reason that Burgundy owns a bunch of land in the low countries is the same reason that Burgundy would be split between the Emperor and the French King on the death of it's heirless ruler. Burgundy ruled it's Imperial possessions as a vassal of the Holy Roman Emperor and was governed by the laws of the Emperor. And Phillip the Bold was the son of a French King and a vassal of France, as long as the Burgundian duke died heirless their French possessions would revert to a De Valois King of France.

France took advantage of a weakened and weary duchy exhausted from Charles' disastrous campaign. The reclamation of the French Burgundian lands after Charles' death wasn't some pre-existing arrangement. The lands belonged to Mary by right of inheritance as a French vassal. It was merely an opportunistic ultimatum that Louis XI knew the Burgundians were too weak to oppose after the war.

Austria as well had no right or guarantee to possess the Burgundian lands within the empire ( aside from those that were leased by Charles from the emperor ) and gained the Burgundian lands through the marriage of Mary to the Habsburg heir. She could have chosen to marry someone else if she wanted too. Perhaps her hand was forced somewhat by imperial pressure, but there's no reason that should have to be the case with any other theoretical heir in a different scenario.

Even the dual vassalage thing shouldn't merit special treatment.

There are many countries in the game that had multiple allegiances in the EUIV time-frame - especially in South East Asia, where it was the norm - and since the game's mechanics can't model that, it doesn't do so for any other country and does so poorly for Burgundy. If Burgundy became large enough and powerful enough to rival France, and it may well have if Charles I had succeeded in forging his own kingdom, it's previous position as a French vassal would be irrelevant.

 

[PhoenixG]

With vassals/PU don't have much trouble to let them attach to my army when set to supportive. It's allies that I've trouble with

 

[Bibor]

you can barely afford a 20 stack leaving you hopelessly helpless vs a france who allies either england or castile,

I'm not sure what we are talking about here. Which nations are AI, which are Human controlled? Who is siding with who?
Versus France, one of the two euro powers that has compact lands AND a strong economy (the other being the Ottomans), no other nation has a chance 1 vs 1, not even 1 vs 2. Even AI vs AI, it takes Castile, England, Austria, Portugal and Burgundy (two simultaneous wars) to break France.

To be fair, I'd rather take three vassals such as Dutch minors with their separate manpower pools and adjacency to my lands over some mediocre AI power like Portugal or the Pope.
A fully integrated Burgundy in 1444 would be in a stronger position than France, with much stronger trade, naval forcelimits and a better diplomatic situation, as France has no way of allying Austria and England being a semi-permanent rival. That leaves France with Castile and Aragon as potential allies and if I was France, I'd actually pick Aragon over Castile, because Castile is actually weaker than Aragon at start.

Burgundy allying Aragon puts France in a really tough position diplomatically, as Austria is known to ally Castile, Portugal is already allied to England and Aragon actually has the potential of raising a serious army to threathen Southern France (not to mention its leader starts with 5 in mil).

On the other hand, even nerfed, human-played Austria can probably beat France 1 vs 1 as "good luck sieging down its core lands with forts in the Alps".

All this said, France doesn't have infinte manpower either. It might start with 40k troops, but so does Burgundy & PUs to be fair. All it takes is two forts to go down and France's economy is in trouble, especially since it takes two and a half ships to get a 100% blockade.

 

[Troopperi]

You could also use the "siphon income" subject action. I'm not sure if it is worth it, but you should be able to use it without the liberty desire going over 50. Even at the game start, when you have 50 relations with all three of your PUs, and the action drops relations by 100, they won't exceed 50 LD. The -100 relations from the action disappears in about 10 years. I'm not sure how long does the LD straight from the action last though.

I'm not sure if it is part of some DLC though, at least the wiki doesn't say it is.

 

[oros]

France took advantage of a weakened and weary duchy exhausted from Charles' disastrous campaign. The reclamation of the French Burgundian lands after Charles' death wasn't some pre-existing arrangement. The lands belonged to Mary by right of inheritance as a French vassal. It was merely an opportunistic ultimatum that Louis XI knew the Burgundians were too weak to oppose after the war.

It was an apanage, so it was supposed to be inherited by the king of France in the case of the end of the house of Bourgogne.

 

[Orkonkel]

If the lands were inherited by the French king, he would not have to take them by force. Mary was the successor to the Burgundian lands, heck, the French king tried to marry his son to her so he would gain their territories.

No?

Lol feudalism. xD

 

[Incompetent]

Given the geography of the situation, Burgundy could really do with the ability to steal trade power from its PU juniors, like you can with vassals.

 

[wingren013]

If the lands were inherited by the French king, he would not have to take them by force. Mary was the successor to the Burgundian lands, heck, the French king tried to marry his son to her so he would gain their territories.

No?

Lol feudalism. xD

he only tried to marry his son to her to secure the Low Countries. He already had Burgundy. But then the Austrian Emperor muscled his way in and married Mary.

 

[BrokenRifle]

while i think what has been said is valid, it does not change the fact that burgundy is poor. if you dissagree that is fine and while it is true that burgundy has more troops than france you need to remember half of it is AI controlled and you can barely afford a 20 stack, for MP this is harsh, as you end up having to go loan crazy to afford a war, which means even if you win it the cost was great.

It's admireable that you believe the AI troops will always stack on you because they often will not i had them on supportive and had activated attachment, only flanders attached.

france has the economy for a long war burgundy does not, if you think it's fine that burgundy sits on its current income or that you have to throw away loyalty with your PU's to get some money from them to have any kind of income that is fine, but let me just remind you in an MP you cannot take a diplo idea as your first, and quite frankly not as your second either unless you plan to colonize or rapidly expand.(most cases people take economics in europe)

Honestly in my opinion burgundy needs a flavor patch and something to make it stronger.

and speaking of flavor patch, so does the HRE. i think asia and the middle east has gotten enough attention for now (specially japan who has gotten 3 patches dedicated to it)

IF you do not play mp specially competitive i'm sorry to say but your opinion will be taken with a grain of salt.. and honestly i feel some of the comments are aimed as if i do not know how to play the game.. which i do.

All i want is that we get Burgundy as it was.. a powerful nation that could combat France, if you think that is what it is right now, then try to 1v1 France against a decent player, because you cannot allows get the Castilian nor the English player into it, and with how Austria is right now after the nerf, gl with having that player to help you.

IF you could control your PU's troops fully then yes burgundy would indeed be better, IF you were given income of your unions without having to siphon yes burgundy would have a good economy. perhaps a unique system for burgundy and it's free starting PU's. what do i know just something to make it somewhat believable.

 

[bbqftw]

While I'm not doubting such groups can indeed be competitive, if starting position balance is really a concern surely something like fixed point custom nations are better?

 

[BrokenRifle]

You have a fair point bbqftw, but there are actually some competive mps out there but those belong to setup groups that also have a set of rules. they are hard to come by but they do exist, and honestly custom nations is something we prefer to avoid as there really shouldnt be a need to,(and custom nations are simply can be made too stronk) all nations are fully capable of becoming really strong but burgundy is just one of those do or die choices because you depend way to much on castile/england and used to austria, ofcourse everyone will have allies they need in order to survive but Burgundy which ones again sits right next to france is dead should castile decide to ally the french, (this happens often as its a very powerful alliance) before you could negate this by allying the austrian + english player.. but as i stated earlier after the nerf Austria has gotten weakened and simply dont have what it takes to help you with the french without getting killed by hungary or bohemia.

all i want is that Burgundy is represented in a matter of how it iwas.. not 100% historical but ..lets be honest EU4 is far from that.