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oim8

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Apr 21, 2016
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This map demonstrates my suggestions for Bulgaria. Several settlements have been placed in incorrect locations in the current game, so the blue dot represents their corrected position. Varna Bay also wasn't very well drawn as a coastal feature, so I redrew it. The same has been done for the island of Nessebar in the Bay of Burgas.

mP7DPOP.png


Province Suggestions:

1.) Name: Dobruja (Bulgarian name), Dobrogea (Romanian name)
Capital: Kötence (Turkish name), Kyustendja (Bulgarian name), Constanta (Romanian name)
Culture: Bulgarian
Terrain: Steppe

The region had previously been part of the Bulgarian-speaking Principality of Karvuna until the early 15th century, when it was conquered and briefly held by Wallachia until falling to the Ottomans. I don’t know when Romanian settlement began, but from the 13th to 15th centuries, it belonged to the Bulgarian state and its appendages, hence the culture.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/DobrXIV.png

2.) Name: Silistre (Turkish name), Silistra (Bulgarian name)
Capital: Silistre (Turkish name), Silistra (Bulgarian name)
Culture: Bulgarian
Terrain: Steppe

From the late middle ages to around the 16th century, the region of Dobruja was (and to a reasonable extent, still is) very arid and sparsely populated. It was even described as a desert by then-contemporary authors. Only fortified settlements retained any population while vast, wild steppe dominated until the 19th century when the steppe became agricultural land.

Below is a PDF of a book describing late medieval Dobruja. Part of it is in English, and describes the topographic character of the region during the time period. It is more extensively described in Bulgarian, and I can translate it by request.
http://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/booksBG/G_Atanasov_Dobrudzjanskoto_despotstvo.pdf

3.) Name: Varna (Bulgarian name)
Capital: Varna (Bulgarian name)
Culture: Bulgarian
Terrain: Grassland

4.) Name: Kirk Kilise (Turkish), Lozengrad (Bulgarian)
Capital: Kirk Kilise (Turkish), Lozengrad (Bulgarian)
Culture: Bulgarian
Terrain: Grassland

5.) Name: Magna Silva Bulgarica
In Western sources, the Balkan Mountains were referred to as "Magna Silva Bulgarica" and they represent an impassable wasteland. It was densely forested and virtually uninhabited until only a few centuries ago.
https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/Българска_гора

It could form a natural border/boundary between the Ottomans and any potential stronger conqueror who could gain a foothold in the region.

6.) Name: Filibe (Turkish name), Plovdiv (Bulgarian name)
Capital: Filibe (Turkish name), Plovdiv (Bulgarian name)
Culture: Bulgarian
Terrain: Farmlands

7.) Name: Kircaali (Turkish name), Zherkovo (Bulgarian name)
Capital: Kircaali (Turkish name), Zherkovo (Bulgarian name)
Culture: Bulgarian
Terrain: Mountains

8.) Name: Tirnova (Turkish name), Tarnovo (Bulgarian name)
Capital: Tirnova (Turkish name), Tarnovo (Bulgarian name)
Culture: Bulgarian
Terrain: Farmlands

9.) Name: Lovech (Bulgarian name), Lofca (Turkish name)
Capital: Lovech (Bulgarian name), Lofca (Turkish name)
Culture: Bulgarian
Terrain: Hills

Before the Bulgarian state fell in 1396, Lovech was its autonomous appendage, and the fortress of Lovech didn’t fall until after 1444 (sources date the fall between 1446 and 1462). Thus, I propose that Lovech be an independent OPM in 1444. It would be headed by Voivode Stanko of Lovech. It could an Ottoman core like Albania. Perhaps a decision/mission to form Bulgaria after acquiring all cores could be available?

Sources:

Here's a German-language version of 1628 book "Rumelia and Bosnia" by Ottoman historian Hadji Kalfa, republished in Vienna in 1812. It says that Lovech fell in 866 (1461-1462).
https://books.google.ca/books?id=DzsLAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=snippet&q=866&f=false

http://lovech.court-bg.org/img/File/Lovech_History.pdf (municipal website, cites 1446 as the year of the town’s fall, but I don’t know where that figure came from)

https://books.google.ca/books?id=HDQn3tJkyUcC&pg=PA223&lpg=PA223&dq="станко+войвода"&source=bl&ots=qgw8w-zKhY&sig=j1Xdff1-er88_wS6SirBzLjFhiQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFsLHrkMjVAhXmx4MKHeCPAoQQ6AEIOjAD#v=onepage&q="станко войвода"&f=false
Book, details the folklore regarding Stanko, the last Voivode of Lovech.

This site presents the borders of medieval Lovech:
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1300/1300_Southeast.html

My proposed national idea set of Lovech is on the bottom of the second page.

10.) Name: Ivraca (Turkish name), Vratitsa (Bulgarian name)
Capital: Ivraca (Turkish name), Vratitsa (Bulgarian name)
Terrain: Hills

The town of Vratitsa (modern-day Vratsa)/Ivraca was situated on an important pass of the Balkan Mountains, thus warranting the hills terrain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vratsa

11.) Name: Vidin (Turkish name), Badin (Bulgarian name)
Capital: Vidin (Turkish name), Badin (Bulgarian name)
Terrain: Grassland

When controlled by a nation of Bulgarian culture, the game currently assigns it the name “Vidin”, but Vidin is the Ottoman Turkish name of the town, while at the time, it was called “Badin” in Bulgarian.

12.) Name: Sofya (Turkish name), Sofia (Bulgarian name)
Capital: Sofya (Turkish name), Sofia (Bulgarian name)
Terrain: Highland

The province contains a sizeable part of the Central Balkan Mountain Range, Mount Rila and Mount Pirin, all of which are nearly 3000 meters tall; hence I don't believe that the current in-game "woods" terrain is suitable for the province.

13.) Name: Kosten (Turkish name), Velbazhd (Bulgarian name)
Capital: Kosten (Turkish name), Velbazhd (Bulgarian name)
Culture: Bulgarian
Terrain: Highland

14.) Name: Uskup (Turkish name), Skopje (Bulgarian name)
Capital: Uskup (Turkish name), Skopje (Bulgarian name)
Culture: Bulgarian
Terrain: Highland

The dialect spoken in the Macedonia region is classified as being of the Eastern-South Slavic variety (grouped with Bulgarian), as opposed to the West-South Slavic variety including Serbo-Croatian and Slovenian. The populace held a Bulgarian identity as attested by the existence of organisations such as the IMRO during late Ottoman times which sought to cede the area to Bulgaria. I don’t know where the idea that the Vardar valley was of Serbian culture comes from, I’ve never heard that suggested outside of this game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Macedonian_Revolutionary_Organization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language

15.) Name: Sozopolis (Greek), Sozopol (Bulgarian), Sizebolu (Turkish)
Capital: Sozopolis (Greek), Sozopol (Bulgarian), Sizebolu (Turkish)
Culture: Bulgarian
Terrain: Grassland

The are belonged to Byzantium from the end of the Savoyard crusade to 1453.

I suggest that the provinces be organised into the following states:

Macedonia (existing state, includes provinces 13 and 14)
Thrace (existing state, includes province 4 and 15)
Bulgaria (existing state, contains provinces 1, 2, 3 and 8)
Shopluk (new state, includes provinces 10, 11 and 12)
Zagore (new state, includes provinces 6, 7 and 9)

Shopluk means "the land of the Shopi", the Shopi being an ethnographic group native to the region (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopi#Shopluk_area).

Zagore means “the lands behind the mountains”, in this case referring to the lands south of the Balkan Mountains. During the middle ages, the term was often synonymous with Bulgaria as a whole in western sources (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagore).

Here's a topographic map of the region to add some reasoning to the terrain suggestions.

3kUhbyU.png


As a native speaker of Bulgarian, I would gladly offer my services to Paradox in translating and providing material/sources relating to the subject.
 
Last edited:

grommile

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Mesembria seems unlikely to meet with Paradox's approval. They're generally trying to avoid adding new tiny unclickable island provinces.
 

oim8

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Mesembria seems unlikely to meet with Paradox's approval. They're generally trying to avoid adding new tiny unclickable island provinces.
Yeah, you're probably right. But what's Venice in the real world? A tiny, unclickable island. What's Venice in the game? A proportionally-exaggerated, somewhat more clickable island.
 

AndrejK

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Rather add only 3 new provinces - maybe split Silistra in two, also dividing Nigbolu and Plovdiv seems most reasonable
 

Maghrebian

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I love the ideas! I have no knowledge about Bulgaria and the region in general, so I will just say that the provinces look fine. Also, I'm all for including Mesembria, even if it needs enlarging like Venice. And about Lovech, it would make the region more interesting, so yes!

EDIT: from what I've read on Wikipedia (I know, but they seem preety sure about it), Primorie and Sozopol, which are located near Mesembria, were held by the Byzantines until 1453 as well. So the province makes even more sense.
 
Last edited:

allfath3r

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The only problem I have with this is that it's going to result in a stronger Ottomans in 99.99% of games.
 

oim8

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Apr 21, 2016
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The only problem I have with this is that it's going to result in a stronger Ottomans in 99.99% of games.

Development could remain the same, it would just need to be re-divided among the new provinces.
 

Five_X

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The only problem I have with this is that it's going to result in a stronger Ottomans in 99.99% of games.

Wrong religion, wrong culture, and dhimmi estate on top of already average-development provinces means they won't really get a whole lot out of them, and revolts would be worse.
 

grommile

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Wrong religion, wrong culture, and dhimmi estate on top of already average-development provinces means they won't really get a whole lot out of them, and revolts would be worse.
Heathens are not a problem for the Ottomans, Bulgarian is accepted in Ottomans at game start, the starting allocation of the Dhimmi estate does not include any of the Bulgarian provinces, and I can't remember the last time I saw a Bulgarian revolt.
 

NikitaDirigable

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Good ideas!!!
Maybe you divide Dobruja on Tulcha and Constanta? Also, divide Üsküp on Ohrid and Üsküp.
 
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Five_X

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Heathens are not a problem for the Ottomans, Bulgarian is accepted in Ottomans at game start, the starting allocation of the Dhimmi estate does not include any of the Bulgarian provinces, and I can't remember the last time I saw a Bulgarian revolt.

Alright, this is mostly true - though I'd counter that the Ottomans shouldn't have Bulgarian as an accepted culture to start out, considering the rebellions they faced, and more Bulgarian provinces would increase the likelihood of those revolts in-game. Also, there's nothing stopping the Ottomans from giving Orthodox Bulgarian territories to the dhimmi estate; in fact, the Anatolian AI in particular is extremely likely to do so, which you also see with the Armenians if their provinces come under the control of the Ottomans.
 

Playerrebloch

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Considering the size and limitted number of provinces in rich regions such as northern Italy and the Netherlands, other parts of the world would require a province splitting.
The number of provinces also rpresent the weath in game. SO I think that Bulgaria souldn't have more.
 

Five_X

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Considering the size and limitted number of provinces in rich regions such as northern Italy and the Netherlands, other parts of the world would require a province splitting.
The number of provinces also rpresent the weath in game. SO I think that Bulgaria souldn't have more.

Which is why fabulously wealthy Japan has as many provinces as all of Italy, and other dirt-poor lands like Persia and Egypt?

Provinces exist to represent geographical and political divisions, which Europe and Japan had in excess in this time period. The closest measure of wealth is in development, and even that's not accurate for at least several parts of the world.
 

Mattymooz

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I kinda wanna see a mod where all the provinces are 1/1/1 devlopemtyn though and the size representing how rich the province was.
 

oim8

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Considering the size and limitted number of provinces in rich regions such as northern Italy and the Netherlands, other parts of the world would require a province splitting.
The number of provinces also rpresent the weath in game. SO I think that Bulgaria souldn't have more.

Limited provinces in Netherlands? What? Netherlands has teeny-tiny village-sized provinces and people still keep asking for more Dutch provinces every tenth thread or so.

If my proposal were to be implemented in its entirety, Bulgaria's provinces wouldn't be any small than Serbia's, Hungary's, Albania's, Bosnia's, Georgia's, etc... Bulgaria's provinces are already around twice the size of those in immediately neighbouring lands, this region has simply been neglected. I don't see why Ottoman provinces need to be huge blobs while other Balkan countries get their provinces split every few updates...

Russia already annexes everything all the way to Eastern Anatolia by the 1700's anyway and Austria/Bohemia/Poland/Hungary always take the Ottoman land in Europe by around the same time. In almost every game I've played recently (past year or so), Ottomans get completely demolished by their neighbours by (at latest) the 1700's, most of the time without the player's intervention. The Ottomans really aren't overpowered unless you're already playing some Balkan OPM with no chance from the start...
 

Itchel

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Overall pretty good but... I don't think "Mesembria" is big, developed nor important enough to warrant a province
 

NikitaDirigable

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I suggest to add some mountains and provinces:
IMG_8807.jpg


Provinces:
5 - Tulcha;
13 - Üsküp;
14 - Orhid.


Mountains:
A* - East Balkan Mountains (or East Stara Planina);
B* - West Balkan Mountains (or West Stara Planina);
C* - Rila-Pirin;
D* - Serbian Carpathian;
E* - Šar mountains (or Sharr Mountains).
 

Playerrebloch

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I speak in a multiplayer perspective : in a big game (30 and more players in Europe) the more provinces a player have, the more development he can make out of it. So in that regards and in a gameplay perspective the size of a province does indirectly represent wealth.

Moreover with a shittone of provinces one can spam forts and recruit more easily (also historically linked to the wealth of a region). It is already hell to pass two lines of ottoman forts in good defensive terrains with janissaries space marines defending it.
So more forts, no thank you !

In multiplayer it would really be a game killer.

Which is why fabulously wealthy Japan has as many provinces as all of Italy, and other dirt-poor lands like Persia and Egypt?

Provinces exist to represent geographical and political divisions, which Europe and Japan had in excess in this time period. The closest measure of wealth is in development, and even that's not accurate for at least several parts of the world.

Japan was very rich and populated, I don't really understand your point (and your example).

Limited provinces in Netherlands? What? Netherlands has teeny-tiny village-sized provinces and people still keep asking for more Dutch provinces every tenth thread or so.

If my proposal were to be implemented in its entirety, Bulgaria's provinces wouldn't be any small than Serbia's, Hungary's, Albania's, Bosnia's, Georgia's, etc... Bulgaria's provinces are already around twice the size of those in immediately neighbouring lands, this region has simply been neglected. I don't see why Ottoman provinces need to be huge blobs while other Balkan countries get their provinces split every few updates...

Russia already annexes everything all the way to Eastern Anatolia by the 1700's anyway and Austria/Bohemia/Poland/Hungary always take the Ottoman land in Europe by around the same time. In almost every game I've played recently (past year or so), Ottomans get completely demolished by their neighbours by (at latest) the 1700's, most of the time without the player's intervention. The Ottomans really aren't overpowered unless you're already playing some Balkan OPM with no chance from the start...

Because of the point I detailed higher it would be preposterous to have areas such as Finland of central Asia with as much provinces as the Netherlands of Northern Italy. The recent patches that add provinces in central Europe just make the need of more provinces in historically rich and important lands more visible.
I don't demand more provinces in Netherlands, I think that there is far more urgent situation with France the most populated region in Europe during the whole game timeline. France still have ugly and in comparison the its neighbours gigantic provinces (Champagne, Nemours, Saintonge, Paris, Bordeaux, Languedoc, Normandie, Armor...).
 

Five_X

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Japan was very rich and populated, I don't really understand your point (and your example).

Populated, yes, rich... not as much, comparably. It was internally wealthy of course, with a well developed (and highly taxed) agricultural economy, but little in the way of trade compared to, to use a previous example, Persia - which has less provinces than Japan, provinces which are harder to develop because of inaccurately represented mountain terrain everywhere, despite Persia as a whole being richer than Japan during this time period.

Persia had trade goods of value to countries in the East and West, and flourished because of this despite having less agricultural output per capita than Japan. One of the main imports of Persia was rice, in fact, which in turn fueled its trade with India, while fruits and spices went West to Europe. Japan didn't really make anything that anyone in its neighbourhood wanted, or didn't already have or make themselves. Its copper exports were somewhat important to its foreign economy, but Europe and China especially didn't have a particularly nagging need for that from Japan.

(sorry, I'm just mad that Persia is terribly represented, not trying to be rude :x )

Any, fact is, provinces in Bulgaria, Romania, Anatolia and a few other places in Eurasia are huge. Like, unreasonably so. What was done with Hungary - not inherently a hugely rich, populous place by anyone's standards, I'd imagine - in my opinion, is a decent model for the rest of chunky-provinced Europe. That shouldn't be too much to ask. :(
 

Mingmung

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kirk_Kilisse

@OP The Kirkkilisse district of Thrace was a thing in the Ottoman Empire.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kırklareli
Another naming of Kirkkilisse, or "Lozengrad".

Assymetrical naming within a province is not unheard of. Xanadu instead of Xilin Gol, for example. Both are different places within a province, but the name still changes because Xanadu has more prominence in Yuan history.

Sozopol might be a better option, though. But more than four added provinces in Bulgaria is overkill in my opinion.
 
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