Building holdings in nomad lands

[Grunnen]

I am playing as a feudal kingdom, and after conquering some nomad provinces I got the notification I have to build a city or a castle holding in the province or lose it on succession. As a first holding I can only build a temple. I'm not sure if that is intended. But as a second holding I can't build anything, and I get the tooltip message that I have to build one holding of each type first. Which I can't do. Is this a known issue?

 

[[Arthur-PDX]]

Hey. Normally, when you conquer a nomad county, the main holding should turn into a tribe, and that is what you have to upgrade : build the hillforts or market cities and when you get them to level 4 (you need tech level in appropriate tech for that), you can right click on the tribe and upgrade it to castle / city.


Arthur

 

[wildcat_paris]

Hey. Normally, when you conquer a nomad county, the main holding should turn into a tribe, and that is what you have to upgrade : build the hillforts or market cities and when you get them to level 4 (you need tech level in appropriate tech for that), you can right click on the tribe and upgrade it to castle / city.


Arthur

yes, of course, but when one of your vassals conquer the land (it happens often with my Byzantine games), I don't own the county, I have tried several time to upgrade myself (as liege) the tribe hillforts or market but only once, the vassal decided to upgrade to castle/feudal. As the top liege, I just cannot decide to move from tribe to feudal.

So most of the time, I build a castle because upgrading the tribe for the vassal doesn't work.

if I cannot build or only can build a temple, my vassal & I loose the land.
(my vassal conquers again, loose & conquer again... endless)

 

[Unready]

IMHO The main problem is when your vassal conquer the nomad lands and before you can intervene and quickly start to build a castles in these provinces he gave up them to random people whom of course become tribal rulers as they got newly created empty tribal holding. And you simple can't build new castle or city because in tribal land you can built only temples which don't save from nomad agitation.
And if you try to help vassal to upgrade his tribal holding you can do only half of work because level III anv IV of fort requires Castle Infrastructure I which is not quite quickly spreads in nomad lands.
So this is mostly magic circle. And you have to wait for your own death to loose these lands and conquer them again for another try to build new castles.

 

[[Arthur-PDX]]

Well, basically that mechanic was implemented to counter-balance the somewhat weak nomadic AI which doesn't use its govt at its full potential, leading to scenarii where they get completely steamrolled pretty early on by muslim, or Byzantines for example, when historically, the steppes weren't "urbanized" before a much later time.

However, we hear the complaints, and since the mechanic is rather new, it's very likely we're going to have some few talks about how to tweak it a bit to seem less unfair.


Arthur

 

[wildcat_paris]

IMHO The main problem is when your vassal conquer the nomad lands and before you can intervene and quickly start to build a castles in these provinces he gave up them to random people whom of course become tribal rulers as they got newly created empty tribal holding. And you simple can't build new castle or city because in tribal land you can built only temples which don't save from nomad agitation.
And if you try to help vassal to upgrade his tribal holding you can do only half of work because level III anv IV of fort requires Castle Infrastructure I which is not quite quickly spreads in nomad lands.
So this is mostly magic circle. And you have to wait for your own death to loose these lands and conquer them again for another try to build new castles.

Well, basically that mechanic was implemented to counter-balance the somewhat weak nomadic AI which doesn't use its govt at its full potential, leading to scenarii where they get completely steamrolled pretty early on by muslim, or Byzantines for example, when historically, the steppes weren't "urbanized" before a much later time.

However, we hear the complaints, and since the mechanic is rather new, it's very likely we're going to have some few talks about how to tweak it a bit to seem less unfair.


Arthur

Thank you for the full explanation. It makes sense.

 

[Grunnen]

Thanks all for your responses. It makes more sense now.

 

[[Arthur-PDX]]

So, for a bit of an update on the matter : the fact that you can't build anything but temples in tribal vassals holdings is a bug and will get fixed, so that even when your vassals go into the steppes and distribute "nomadic" lands to their own vassals, you'll still be able to build castles / cities in those provinces.

However, it's more than likely that you (the player) are going to have to be the one to build these holdings, because AI should have a very low prio (if any) on building holdings in their vassals' provinces.


Arthur

 

[Unready]

Thanks. Although that's not save us from problem where too much tribal count level vassals with feudal barons as their own vassals in the feudal empire. If giving newly built castle to tribal lord of right religion (and other requirements) in the feudal realm would induce him to make this holding main and become feudal, it would be helpful and logical.
Now he just give this holding to random man and slowly build own tribal just to change to feudal 50 years later.