Building a hit-and-run navy to grind down larger and stronger enemies

[PorkchopSandwiches247]

Theorycrafting incoming. I want to love the Naval game, but even after updates it feels like it really only has two functions: convoy raiding with subs, and getting enough freak occurrence superiority for invasions. In large part because naval strength tends to be pretty static…Allies have insane sized navies that are almost impossible to (conventionally) challenge in actual battle without shenanigans like faction changing.

However, is it possible with specific ship designs, fleet compositions, and naval spirits to create a small, powerful strike force, that can ambush and whittle down a much more expensive force over time?

My line of thinking is based mostly on the following assumptions:

Surface Raiders - Trade Interdiction Naval Command Spirit, giving +10% fleet speed while retreated, and +20% screening bonus when using only capital ships...lets you remove the cost of screens entirely by going all capitals and still getting a screening bonus, cutting down on IC cost and decreasing fleet size
Capital Ship Raiders - Increases the Fleet Size penalty, which works perfect for your much smaller navy in the first place
Trade Interdiction Heavy Cruiser perks - +40 Org, +30% Surface Detection, +50% Raiding Efficiency makes the most out of Heavy Cruisers out of any doctrine

The composition:
4 Carriers - so to not exceed the sorting penalty. I know there are some gimmicks to make more than 4 Carriers worthwhile but it seems like a real pain. All loaded up with Naval Bombers to max damage. With dual Purpose cannons and Anti Air to protect from bombers themselves.
A few AA battlecruisers - basically to be Anti-Air sponges. Load them up with secondary and anti-air modules, then make them otherwise quick as possible for speed tanking. Job is to soak up naval bomber and heavy attack damage without sustaining losses.
As many Heavy Cruisers as possible - This is where it gets tricky to me. Give them armor to protect against screens and minimize damage, or is the IC increase and speed penalty too much? Upgrade the heavy attack guns to highest available, or keep them Lvl 1 for cost and speed reasons? Limit them to 1 heavy cannon, or multiple for the extra attack and HP value? Load it up with dual purpose or secondary cannons? I also had a weird thought to slap on torpedoes in one of the slots...This allows the ship gets to simultaneously fire off 3 different types of weapons at the same time, increasing the chance for a critical hit and the torpedoes getting the screening bonuses to hit chance? This might be nice on paper but functionally worthless however, compared to another secondary cannon in that slot. How naval attacks bunch together and target the enemy is confusing in general to me, is it just pooled and added together or do the hits come from specific ships?

The idea being to keep fleet speed high for quick retreats, fleet size relatively small to increase the size penalty, and damage high so that you can sink/damage a few ships and get out of there before taking any losses yourself, grinding down the enemy while you continue to build up yours over time.

Would something like this actually work? Thinking along the lines of as a minor nation like Turkey, who could afford the resources to build this small but powerful type of task force even though they start with very little in the way of an existing navy. Does the Surface Raiders naval spirit actually apply to both Carriers and Heavy Cruisers, or is strict enough to only include Battleships/Battlecruisers? Id start testing all this myself but I have some work I have to take care of, so in the meantime would be interested in your experience/opinion on the idea.

 

[The_Tim]

I'd say something like night fighting, close quarters, or decisive battle would be better perks

this is sorta like the docterine that I like to use as Italy, but here's a few critiques that I'll add if its alright with you:

1. Go ahead and make proper BCs, with 2-3 Heavy Batteries and most of the rest of the slots being DP Secondaries. This is so you can have a small, and effective, battlefleet to back up your strong light forces

2. have something like half or at least 10 of the airwing on the CVs, this'll provide at least basic cover against hostile CVs, and trust me if you are going up against the Allies you'll be going up against hostile CVs

3. All the speed you really need is 30 Knots, as long as you are going with reasonably modern hulls you should be able to easily to achieve this. 30 Knots allows you to catch the enemy scouts(any slower and the spotting penalties get SEVERE) while also allowing you to escape enemy battlefleets reasonably fast if the worst would happen. Gun up and Armor up as much as you want while keeping to 30 Knots. IIRC Turkey gets a Mediterranian Designer, get it if you can and use it to design your "Light" forces(CAs, CLs, and DDs)

4. Surface Raiders is a trap, as even with the 30% screen blocking, the amount of damage torps put out is ludicrous, you will NEED to have some screens. I'd personally advise you do a mix of DDs(because there's little opportunity cost for putting Torps(for potentially isolated CAs and BBs) and Depth Charges on DDs since DD Light Guns are pittiful) for anti-sub and Torps, some CLs for Light Attacks to take out the enemy DDs, and have a balanced, though a good chunk of Heavy Attack, with your CAs to deal with enemy CLs and CAs

remember, your advantage is that your fleet should be more advanced, in spite of its small numbers(you should use older Cruisers either for CV conversion or put on the Convoy Escort duty, as for older DDs, I'll leave it up to you) you should use them in powerful task forces to defeat the enemy in detail, one by one, scout fleet by scout fleet. You do, however, need to make sure you have at least a small(though this is a secondary priority, get your scouts first) battlefleet so that you can back up your powerful scout fleets, and take advantage of potential opportunities

 

[PorkchopSandwiches247]

Is surface raiders really a trap? I recall seeing a thread where someone designed a fleet entirely around this concept, and wiped out the entire UK fleet in a head on battle with 0 screens and a large IC disadvantage. The starting UK fleet has a huge amount of torpedoes so Id think this would have resulted in catastrophic losses in this scenario.

Also from what I recall, pursuing fleet speed makes no difference with how quickly the enemy can retreat. How come 30kn is the sweet spot? Are there major diminishing returns beyond this point?

 

[Alexander 'The Grape']

Is surface raiders really a trap? I recall seeing a thread where someone designed a fleet entirely around this concept, and wiped out the entire UK fleet in a head on battle with 0 screens and a large IC disadvantage. The starting UK fleet has a huge amount of torpedoes so Id think this would have resulted in catastrophic losses in this scenario.

Also from what I recall, pursuing fleet speed makes no difference with how quickly the enemy can retreat. How come 30kn is the sweet spot? Are there major diminishing returns beyond this point?

This is due to the current naval hit chance error (a multiplier that was set to 2 instead of 0.5) that heavily reduces torp hit chance so it may work in current patches but not in the next one

 

[PorkchopSandwiches247]

This is due to the current naval hit chance error (a multiplier that was set to 2 instead of 0.5) that heavily reduces torp hit chance so it may work in current patches but not in the next one

Ah. Well thats a shame. I guess its basically worthless now. Thanks for the info. Also I checked and youre the one that posted that strategy so thank you or that as well.

So I guess thats all out the window...would something like super fast Light Cruisers stacked up with light attack and maybe a torpedo work? Or is speed only so good for hit and run strategies?

 

[Corpse Fool]

I guess my question is more conceptual.

What is the difference between continuous combat, and breaking it up into smaller hit and run fights? There isn't any sort of ambush bonus or something similar that I know of that would particularly advantage you.

 

[PorkchopSandwiches247]

I guess my question is more conceptual.

What is the difference between continuous combat, and breaking it up into smaller hit and run fights? There isn't any sort of ambush bonus or something similar that I know of that would particularly advantage you.

In my experience, what often happens is that my fleet will engage smaller fleets via convoy raiding or other means, and we are winning the combat initially. Then more enemy fleets travel to the ongoing combat until my smaller fleet finds itself outgunned when more and more of those task forces join the battle, then they make the decision to retreat. The idea is that it can punch holes in the enemy feet before more task forces can arrive, because once the full weight of the British/Allied navy shows up my fleet doesnt really stand much chance and would get obliterated or at least severely damaged and out of commission for a while repairing.

Theres no formal ambush bonus in the code or anything, I really just want to use my small, quick, concentrated task force to pick off some of those first task forces to arrive with as much firepower as I can muster in a short period of time, and then escape before overwhelming numbers show up. Ideally without taking much damage or casualties in the process.

Basically, catching the enemy fleet while it is split up. Ie My 50 ships would get crushed by their 200 in straight battle, but if I can keep it to smaller engagements of 50 vs 50 I can divide and conquer. I dont know if this is actually possible in practice, which is why I want to pick everyone's brain on the matter and see what would be the best way to go about it, if its even possible in the first place.

 

[bitmode]

What is the difference between continuous combat, and breaking it up into smaller hit and run fights? There isn't any sort of ambush bonus or something similar that I know of that would particularly advantage you.

I think it would mostly be whittling down their escort TFs and convoys before the main enemy strike force arrives.

This might be nice on paper but functionally worthless however, compared to another secondary cannon in that slot. How naval attacks bunch together and target the enemy is confusing in general to me, is it just pooled and added together or do the hits come from specific ships?

Only weapons of the same attack type are grouped together on a ship. Otherwise, each ship and each damage type on it do their own targeting. Having three types of damage technically raises the chance of crits, but I'm not sure whether that's worth it. Especially as torpedoes fire less frequently.

 

[Razgriz13]

I think the best way to have this is trying to have a "Heavy scout fleet". 10 to 12 ships that are able to deal against other scout task forces as fast as possible. The idea is: Find, kill, retreat. If it's against AI, AI uses scout TF that are very small (with mostly destroyers and a few CLs) to recon, and most of capitals are left as strike forces. Fast ships (non converted carriers), battlecruisers, cruisers and fast cls would be ideal. If you can kill all scout ships before the doomstack comes, your ships will be safe.

 

[Harin]

If hit and run depends heavily on the run part, would using an admiral with enhanced retreat chance help? Or does that not kick in until to late, if at all?

 

[PorkchopSandwiches247]

I think it would mostly be whittling down their escort TFs and convoys before the main enemy strike force arrives.


Only weapons of the same attack type are grouped together on a ship. Otherwise, each ship and each damage type on it do their own targeting. Having three types of damage technically raises the chance of crits, but I'm not sure whether that's worth it. Especially as torpedoes fire less frequently.

Really interesting, thank you for the information.

Yeah, maybe not. I wonder if you could stack traits to make this strategy somewhat viable. A few that might be theoretically beneficial:
-Brave Commanders: +15% Crit Chance
-Marksman: +10% crit chance
-Loading Drill Master: -25% Torpedo Cooldown, so that torpedoes fire every 3 hours instead of every 4 (other weapons fire every hour)

Not sure how something like 'torpedo screen penetration" fits in all this either. Or how important hit chance to begin with is in the grand scheme of things.

 

[marcelo r. r.]

Stacking related retreat traits..
but is hard atm to farm blockade runner, is more easy pick Convoy Warfare doctrine and related academy spirit to get Admiral with Blockade Runner.

 

[The_Tim]

Is surface raiders really a trap? I recall seeing a thread where someone designed a fleet entirely around this concept, and wiped out the entire UK fleet in a head on battle with 0 screens and a large IC disadvantage. The starting UK fleet has a huge amount of torpedoes so Id think this would have resulted in catastrophic losses in this scenario.

Also from what I recall, pursuing fleet speed makes no difference with how quickly the enemy can retreat. How come 30kn is the sweet spot? Are there major diminishing returns beyond this point?

I say 30 Knots, because higher than that makes it hard to fit in modern CAs and older CLs. Obviously more speed is better, but don't sacrifice speed for it. Additionally I can certainly confirm that speed does have something to do with not getting whacked while retreating, from differing experiences from having Italy's bad 2 BBs in the Battle Fleet vs. having them not be in it. Though for the scout fleets, its because of the spotting penalties from being slower from the potential pure-DD scouts the enemy sends out, and to make them harder to detect in return, just because you can escape from a battlefleet if needed, its best not to have such encounters often if unintended

I guess my question is more conceptual.

What is the difference between continuous combat, and breaking it up into smaller hit and run fights? There isn't any sort of ambush bonus or something similar that I know of that would particularly advantage you.

the AI is normally surprisingly good at having BB-centered Squadrons at all major stations(presuming of course, the AI starts with them since I have yet to see a AI-built BB). So you don't want to have battles last too long, else your scout squadron will be engaged upon by the enemy battlefleet, and that'll at least cause a lot of damage, or at worst casualties in exchange for killing a few screens

Not sure how something like 'torpedo screen penetration" fits in all this either. Or how important hit chance to begin with is in the grand scheme of things.

From what I can tell, it is a chance for some of the Torps to go onto to hit the enemy Capital Ships, it makes Torps Very Strong with Japan with their special spirit. Though if you only have the chance from traits(with full escort effiecency from the enemy) then the torps that get through won't do that much damage, it'll be noticeable but not as devastating as unescorted Capitals get hit by basic torp armament

 

[Cavalry]

I did before but not try again with the recent naval change.
There is very few minors with good naval capacity. I suggest to use Netherland vs Axis first. The others is Nat/Rep Spain, Canada..

Build all CL+DD in the ratio about 1 CL:2 DD. DD with full torpedo, CL with guns. With pure screen fleet, an advisor, trait will boost all your ship, not 50%. The DD serve at a dilution, help your precious CL to avoid heavy fire. All your ships will sail and fire in the same direction, concentrate fire on their screen first.

Try to keep the speed of them the same, about 40 knot, to help them withdraw at the same time. So the early CL is with less gun.

For safe you can wait till you have 15CL, but everyone is eager so start convoy raiding at far from their home base: UK island, Japan, Germany. Use all your ship at one fleet.

Convoy raiding is good because you will meet their weak escorts first, not the strike force. The plan is killing all their screen then torpedo their capital later.

After each time you clear a seazone and the enemy didn't return. Use 3 subs to hold that seazone and move your main fleet closer.

After a while you clear all their convoy, then you can switch to Patrol with whole fleet again. The advantage of patrol is you only join battle with superiority odd and avoid big fleets.

If any bad happens, push the Run away button, you lose nothing to run.

Add a few CA is bad idea, because all their heavy gun will concentrate on the CA. Also the CA have small HP and will be sunk in one air strike. Remember all the enemy heavy gun and aircraft will fire on capital ships first.

With this tactics Netherland can defeat both fleet of Germany and Japan, with very few casualties.

 

[The_Tim]

I did before but not try again with the recent naval change.
There is very few minors with good naval capacity. I suggest to use Netherland vs Axis first. The others is Nat/Rep Spain, Canada..

Build all CL+DD in the ratio about 1 CL:2 DD. DD with full torpedo, CL with guns. With pure screen fleet, an advisor, trait will boost all your ship, not 50%. The DD serve at a dilution, help your precious CL to avoid heavy fire. All your ships will sail and fire in the same direction, concentrate fire on their screen first.

Try to keep the speed of them the same, about 40 knot, to help them withdraw at the same time. So the early CL is with less gun.

For safe you can wait till you have 15CL, but everyone is eager so start convoy raiding at far from their home base: UK island, Japan, Germany. Use all your ship at one fleet.

Convoy raiding is good because you will meet their weak escorts first, not the strike force. The plan is killing all their screen then torpedo their capital later.

After each time you clear a seazone and the enemy didn't return. Use 3 subs to hold that seazone and move your main fleet closer.

After a while you clear all their convoy, then you can switch to Patrol with whole fleet again. The advantage of patrol is you only join battle with superiority odd and avoid big fleets.

If any bad happens, push the Run away button, you lose nothing to run.

Add a few CA is bad idea, because all their heavy gun will concentrate on the CA. Also the CA have small HP and will be sunk in one air strike. Remember all the enemy heavy gun and aircraft will fire on capital ships first.

With this tactics Netherland can defeat both fleet of Germany and Japan, with very few casualties.

this appears to be just a variation on using a battlefleet on convoy raid to force an engagement with their Battlefleet, just you are using a LOT of light screens instead of a mix of Screens and Heavy Ships

and indeed, using CAs instead of proper BCs or BBs in this role would be a bad idea, the idea I was talking about would be having the strong light forces be used for Scouting, when its a scout TF vs. a scout TF, wherein a CA or two per TF makes the deletion of enemy scout TF go much faster, and in what I was describing, when in a proper big battle you'll have CAs with your Battlefleet's BBs/BCs and slow CAs

 

[Cavalry]

this appears to be just a variation on using a battlefleet on convoy raid to force an engagement with their Battlefleet, just you are using a LOT of light screens instead of a mix of Screens and Heavy Ships

Well, it is not a lot but WHOLE fleet. All our ships go together, fight together, and run away together. And we don't seek battle vs enemy fleet, just enemy convoy and escorts. When the strike force come, better run away. We only meet the strike force when they run out of screen and was naked for torpedo. The patrol will trigger the enemy strike force right away. but convoy raiding will trigger the escorts first.

In the naval battle screen, we can confirm our superiority by seeing total light attack, total torpedo attacks. Play slown and mouse over them each hour to see what scoring a hit, to learn about their effective.

 

[Sbrubbles]

I guess my question is more conceptual.

What is the difference between continuous combat, and breaking it up into smaller hit and run fights? There isn't any sort of ambush bonus or something similar that I know of that would particularly advantage you.

I know this exists for carriers, because I play a mod with faster naval battles and the damage done on the first day of battle is massive (and the carriers that are engaging also get massive bonuses that first day vs the carriers getting engaged upon)

I dunno if it applies to other ships though.

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

4 Carriers - so to not exceed the sorting penalty. I know there are some gimmicks to make more than 4 Carriers worthwhile but it seems like a real pain. All loaded up with Naval Bombers to max damage. With dual Purpose cannons and Anti Air to protect from bombers themselves.

Not really a pain: if you bring 4 carriers loaded with bombers, might as well load 5th with fighters (it's essentially a "free" fighter cover against hostile carriers you're skipping on).

I guess my question is more conceptual.

What is the difference between continuous combat, and breaking it up into smaller hit and run fights? There isn't any sort of ambush bonus or something similar that I know of that would particularly advantage you.

There is only one thing I can think of: carriers tend to lose panes and can't refill them in combat.

Edit: maybe, something more exotic, like making hostile strkeforce move back and forth across heavily-mined areas might count too, but I doubt it'll have a lot of impact in terms of extra damage (might as well try forcing the enemy to burn all the fuel reserves that way).

 

[Alexander 'The Grape']

There is only one thing I can think of: carriers tend to lose panes and can't refill them in combat.

Edit: maybe, something more exotic, like making hostile strkeforce move back and forth across heavily-mined areas might count too, but I doubt it'll have a lot of impact in terms of extra damage (might as well try forcing the enemy to burn all the fuel reserves that way).

I have been theory crafting this strategy for this exact reason, and I believe it might be reasonably viable.

If you can get green air and land based naval bombers in the initial engagement, you can use these combined with your own carriers to quickly destroy the enemy's carrier forces.

Then, with your carrier dominance, you can quickly engage and then retreat when you lose too many of your carrier navs to AA. The added retreat speed means that your ships take less hits on the way out

By repeating this strategy, you can grind down even massive fleets using your superior air power, without losing thousands of land navs to AA. (Carrier navs will be 10x more cost effective in this regard.)

This will be less effective when the naval hitchance issue is fixed, but from my testing Carriers are still the most cost effective ships in the game and carrier fleets will always dominate equal ic non carrier fleets (even with great AA and the same number of land based naval bombers are carrier navs aiding the enemy)

 

[The_Tim]

Well, it is not a lot but WHOLE fleet. All our ships go together, fight together, and run away together. And we don't seek battle vs enemy fleet, just enemy convoy and escorts. When the strike force come, better run away. We only meet the strike force when they run out of screen and was naked for torpedo. The patrol will trigger the enemy strike force right away. but convoy raiding will trigger the escorts first.

In the naval battle screen, we can confirm our superiority by seeing total light attack, total torpedo attacks. Play slown and mouse over them each hour to see what scoring a hit, to learn about their effective.

I mean, using surface Raiders, especially when you are taking out large amounts of escorts can and will trigger the enemy strike force quite quickly. And trust me, the strike force will have a good amount of escorts with them. I've found that convoy raiding with a large fleet is the fastest way to force a decisive battle in the current naval system and it IS viable, I just don't like using it since its a bit volatile of a strategy(since you could have a small strike group engage, or the entirety of the UK Home Fleet). From what I can tell you are using Light Attack Spam CLs to delete the enemy escorts once the battlefleet appears so that the Torps of your DDs can sink the enemy Capitals, so in this case you are using your entire surface navy made up of Light Units instead of a battlefleet but using the same fundamental strategy