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JScott991

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Is anyone seeing modern ships in AI navies

I've had four games now progress to beyond 1875 and not one has featured a single modern ship among the AI's fleets.

Has anyone else noticed this problem?

I've tried to fix the AI files (they seem written incorrectly. All production is slated to be in Frigates/MW/Clippers) but that won't help unless you disband their huge MW fleets.

If anyone has any ideas on how to fix this, I'd appreciate it. I'm thinking a patch will be needed to tell the AI to disband obsolete ships and build the new designs.

I hate not being in a naval race with the UK as France.
 

unmerged(20668)

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My 2 cents for this conundrum would be to firstly change the AI file so that they are more prone to building later ships, and then to institute some kind of event that triggers either when the new tech is discovered, a country in the world builds the first battleship or some other trigger, and it would cause most navies (perhaps by random event?) to have many of their old navy vessels disbanded. Maybe the event could be called "The rise of new naval warfare", it could give you more steel or something, but destroy some of the old frigates and men of war.

peace,
 

el freako

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It seems to be reactive,

Playing as Germany (ex-prussia in GC) I regularly saw the AI stick to sailing ships.

That is until I started to build a fleet of BBs, CA's and CL's, then when I checked the UK's fleet a couple of years later they also had them
 

JScott991

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I've never seen them when I played Prussia/Germany.

I'm playing in my third game as France right now, I have 38 IC and am just starting to build my BB/CA/CL fleets (I have 7/10/11 I think right now). The British fleet has been the same since 1836. They have only 66 MW and 63 FR. In my previous two games, abandoned around 1880 because of how boring it was, I never saw AI IC's or beyond.

The problem is the AI file. it doesn't seem to call for new construction and it sets a max military size.

The other problem is the AI builds tons and tons of divisions. Britain has 263 divisions in my game (I am playing with costs of land units set to 10x the normal cost) despite having an AI file military max of 125.

The question, which probably only Paradox can answer, is why Britain builds no new warships and why she builds so many divisions. What in the AI file causes this?

I do think if you could force disband their MW, they would rebuild them as IC/BB/CA/CL. The question is how to do it.
 

barretta

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The irony is in RL Britain was against the construction of the new modern metal ships as it would make her fleet obsolete. It was France's construction of these ships that caused Britain to switch.

Sound a little like the scenarios you are seeing in game.

Sadly for France this caused her to lose any hope in the naval arms race as she had a better to chance to keep up with Britain building wooden ships as she could not match Britain's industrial output.
 

JScott991

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I want to make it clear.

The scenario I'm seeing in game is that no AI nation builds modern ships. Either before or after I do.

If you look at the AI files for the nations, they are not set to build any. I'm not sure why other people see them sometimes. The AI file clearly has 0's next to all modern warships.
 

Johnny Canuck

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JScott991 - In the games you have been playing, did the British have the proper naval inventions to build more advanced warships? It may have been the case that they were unable to build them.
 

Alexander Seil

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There seems to be a related issue. British don't really bother to improve their infrastructure. In my game as Saxony, it's 1845 and there isn't a single level 2 railroad in the whole of the British isles. Many Prussian provinces have level 2 railroads, however.
 

Arentak

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In my recent game as germany, in 1911(from 1835) there were only 2 countries with modern warships, USA and Germany. We were allies, and we each had about 30 capitol ships. Britian had lots of MW and FR's. No AI navy even had Ironclads.
 

Peter Ebbesen

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This is perhaps a silly question, Jscott991, but do the AI nations you have observed have the requisite naval inventions?

If they do not, that is a problem in itself, but it might help to narrow down the causes of the non-building in your games.

It is certainly not because of the 0's in the ai files. Those entries do NOT indicate an absolute percentage, but rather a relative force level the AI should attempt to maintain amongst those of the types of forces being examined.

In the case of the English AI file (and most others), it means that the AI tries to maintain a 0/0/0/2/10 ratio of dreadnoughts/battleships/ironclads/monitors/manowars

Why no values for dreadnoughts, battleships, and ironclads? The answer is obvious when you consider the following: by the time you get battleship tech (#288), ironclads, monitors, manowars, (and frigates) have all been deactivated, and you can only build battleships. The preference values are added for ship types that obsolete each other, so you can be sure that if the AI wants to build a ship-of-the-line, it will build a battleship. Likewise, since dreadnought tech disables battleship tech, the same is the case when dreadnoughts are discovered, making sure that dreadnoughts are built.

E.g. in the English ai file, when you reach battleship tech, battleships will have weight 12, whatever escort ship is available at your current tech will have weight 10 (inherited from Frigate), and the steamer transport will have weight 13 (inherited from clipper transport)
Code:
[font=courier new][color=white]
#	NAVY:
	submarine = 			0
#	---------				0	# Submarines
	dreadnought = 			0
	battleship = 			0
	ironclad = 			0
	monitor = 			2
	manowar = 			10
#	---------				12	# Ships-of-the-Line
	heavy_cruiser = 		0
	cruiser = 			0
	commerce_raider = 		0
	frigate = 			10
#	----------				10	# Escort/Fast ships
	steamer_transport = 		0
	clipper_transport = 		13
#	----------				13	# Transports
#							35

[/color][/font]


Thus the ai not building battleships in your games is very unlikely to be because of that ai parameter (since the way it is currently designed means that 0 is quite often the correct value. If the value for a high order ship is greater than 0, it is because you want to skew production away from some other BRANCH, for instance by building more ships-of-the-line relatively to fast escorts at high tech), and it may prove more interesting to see if it is because of a lack of tech or resources, and, if it is neither of those, then it may be an AI lack of interest in disbanding old ships and building new ones. I know that code to handle that situation exists, but it might not be doing its job in your situation, in which case Johan would likely want a save.

Still and all, please do a quick check that the nations you are examining do have the prerequisite techs and resources, please :)
 
Last edited:

JScott991

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Yes. I tried to give them to the UK but they already had them. In fact, in all my games so far, the UK is more advanced than I am.

Originally posted by Johnny Canuck
JScott991 - In the games you have been playing, did the British have the proper naval inventions to build more advanced warships? It may have been the case that they were unable to build them.
 

JScott991

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Peter,

What you are saying is how I initially interpreted the AI file until I never saw any modern warships.

The AI clearly has the tech. I've checked the savegame file and I've tried to trade the techs to them, but they already had them (in contract, I could trade all the steamer techs and such to Germany, Russia, Italy, and Spain, which I did as a test to make sure the tech trade showed when they had it).

I'm not sure why it is. I'm more than happy to provide numerous saves.

I've now run three games past 1880 and seen no modern warships.

Edit:

If its a bug, then move it to the bug forum. At first, I just wanted an interpretation of why the AI file wasn't working. Now it seems the AI file is written properly and the AI just shows no interest in disbanding and rebuilding its navy. The solution to this that I'm doing now is just deleting the MW fleets that the AI starts with. Its not really fair, but I know that I won't exploit and that the AI doesn't really challenge the UK's fleet of MW and FR anyway. Maybe this will force them to build IC and later warships.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(12858)

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GB had 24 DN

In my only game so far wich reach to the end great brittan had 24 DN. I playd as sweden and had 3-5 DN which was biuld befor GB started to build them. GB build them all around 1900

GB didnt build any BB/CA/CL/DN for quite some time evan if they had the sme or higher nav tech as me

In current game France & Denmark have some raiders in ca 1865

Since MW are quite good against even DN i think the AI is smart not to biuld lots of new ships :rolleyes:
 

JScott991

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Is there any confirmation from Paradox available that the disband AI is not working properly and will be fixed?
 

Derek Pullem

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No confirmation on disband problem. There is code in the game to do it but does not appear to operate often if at all. AI may be deciding that it has so much money that it is not a problem

The man'o'war beating dreadnought issue is more of a problem and is being worked on - which may trigger the AI disband code if its done properly. In progress.

But as to the original bug proposed that the AI does not build anything other than man'o'wars that does not appear to be true in most people's experiences.
 

JScott991

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Sigh . . .

I think it is true.

But I'll run a few more grand campaigns and see.

It is just so depressing to get to 1860, 70, 80, etc. and see 66 MW and 63 FR in the English fleet.

I do find it funny, though maybe still encouraging, that of the two problems, Paradox is focusing on making MW's worse against dreadnoughts. :)

I'm sure that "real" players are beating you to death with suggestions over this (just like the unlimited money issue, which is vastly overrated as a problem), but the solution is probably to create another attack category other than gun and torpedo attack. It could be like cannon attack, and give MW, ironclads, and FR's cannon attack and make later warships immune to it.

Ideally of course DN's would be immune to CA, CL, and BB fire (the advantage of the DN after alll), while BB's would be practically immune to CA fire, and so on. That was the nature of 19th and early 20th century big gun naval combat. But that will probably never happen, as HoI showed.

Take a closer look at that disband AI and modern ships. I don't anyone builds them but player nations and nations who suffer naval losses. And I KNOW that the AI will build modern ships if you disband their ships.
 

Derek Pullem

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Originally posted by JScott991

I do find it funny, though maybe still encouraging, that of the two problems, Paradox is focusing on making MW's worse against dreadnoughts. :)


Actually we should fix the combat issue first - otherwise why should we force the AI to disband vessels that are still effective. So if MW become much worse than battleships (let alone dreadnoughts) then and only then should we force the AI to disband.

Otherwise we give the player an advantage