Bug? Interceptors getting no fuel?

[nz_caleb]

Playing TFH 4.02 as Germany.

It's September 1939, and I have 3x3 INT groups stationed near the Western border in the north, centre and south.

I couldn't figure out why Brit stategic bombers were sneaking through the centre. I looked at my centre group, stationed at Koln, and noticed they had 0.00 Fuel and were thus constantly resting. I tried rebasing them to Frankfurt, and they got 1 days worth of fuel (and went on 1-2 interception missions) before running out of fuel again.

My other two units are getting plenty of fuel. There are no infrastructure problems. I even tried changing commander but to no avail.

Is this a bug or am I just missing something?

 

[Count Blue]

Not absolutly sure but since I encountered similar (but not identic) things I am going to take a shot and call it a bug.
One that raises its ugly head rarely but it does.

Do you have the chance to drop supplies by transport planes on the location mentioned?
I know this sounds weird because the location is in the middle of friendly territory but if you can, try it.

HTH

 

[nz_caleb]

Well, I let it run and about a week or two later it seemed to fix itself. About a month later, when I moved a large portion of my airforce to the area, it happened again (and went away after a few weeks as well).

I think it's just the supply lines being slow to adapt to extra demand, and putting the Interceptors at the bottom of the queue when there isn't enough fuel in the area. The first time this happened was when I moved my army from conquering Poland to the border of the low countries, so I'm going to put it down to that.

Really would have thought Germans were better at planning than this, especially with 100% infrastructure.

 

[Kovax]

One "band aid" for the problem is to station a fuel-using unit to "guard" the airfield. I often send a 1xMOT+AC division to insure a small but steady fuel supply already enroute before I station the planes. Ever wonder what to do with those obsolete LARM brigades? The division is also useful for playing "whack-a-mole" against partisans behind the front, after the planes arrive.

As said, the usual culprit is the delay until new supplies are routed all the way from your capital, and in some remote locations can be over a month until you can fly....assuming that it's not one of those pesky provinces that the supply system tends to bypass, and which will NEVER see a steady supply of fuel or supplies. I've had a 2xGAR division go in and out of supply on a frequent basis only about 6-7 provinces from my capital, despite having sat there for 4+ years.

 

[danhammer]

This is a standard issue with supply rules in HOI3. When an aircraft changes airfields it request supplies from the capital to route to its new location, the supplies/fuel move at a rate of 1 tile a day.
The old route is cancelled and you will see at the (end of the day report) supplies being added back to the stockpile those would be all the supplies that had been in route to the old location.
The supplies/fuel do not get rerouted to the new location they just all end up back in the stockpile at the capitol. So depending on how far away your new airbase is from your capital that is how many days delay it will take for the new supply/fuel route to get to that airbase. Some ways to cheat on this is to place fuel using units in those airbases like armor. They will draw enough fuel for them to operate in that tile. But if they are not moving or fighting that fuel is then stockpiled up to 15 days worth and any aircraft that land at that tile can also use that fuel on hand.
The game does not differentiate between aircraft fuel or armor fuel or ship fuel. Fuel is all the same in supply rules.

 

[Didz]

Some ways to cheat on this is to place fuel using units in those airbases like armor. They will draw enough fuel for them to operate in that tile. But if they are not moving or fighting that fuel is then stockpiled up to 15 days worth and any aircraft that land at that tile can also use that fuel on hand.
The game does not differentiate between aircraft fuel or armor fuel or ship fuel. Fuel is all the same in supply rules.

So, fuel for fuel using ground units doesn't have to wait 1 day per tile to reach the airfield, or are you just saying that as the ground unit has to move to the airfield by land it drags its 15 day fuel supply with it?

 

[browd]

He's talking about pre-placing a fuel-consuming unit at the new airbase province to cause a supply of fuel to be stockpiled there long before you move the aircraft there. This is not a solution for an impromptu decision to move planes around. It may require several weeks of advance planning, given the movement rate of supplies and the distance from your capital to the new airport. Which, for all its frustrations, is fairly "real world" -- it's not like an air leader could just decide "OK, everyone pack up and move this air wing there." and expect the air wing to be operational the moment it arrives. (That is the reason air wings lose org when they rebase, and why using the "reserve" exploit to "hop scotch" air wings around the map without ever formally rebasing is arguably an exploit, although players love that exploit, so it remains.)

 

[Didz]

And yet that's exactly what they did do in the real world, because of course in the real world supplies and fuel doesn't have to travel all the way from the capital.

But as a game exploit it seems that placing a cheap petrol using unit in any location likely to be used as an air base, naval base or staging area for and armoured force is the way to go. I know I had big problems with my USA campaign where east coast bases were constantly starved of fuel and supply because of their huge distance from Washington. So, sticking a motorised infantry unit on every port and airfield on turn 1 would probably have been a good idea.

 

[Count Blue]

because of course in the real world supplies and fuel doesn't have to travel all the way from the capital.

But it had (in WW2 talking about germany) to travel from the refineries to some central collection point then by rail to the front and there to the fuel depot of the army (not the armygroup!) and then be distributed to the troops needing fuel (and supplies).

Also did you know there is actually something like plane fuel which should be different from fuel for trucks and tanks (higher octane).

As I said the fuel for the land units would have been centralized with the army depot.
I do have detailed historic documents about this.
I guess the fuel for the planes too (but this info is missing). I dont think the Luftwaffe had a separate supply system.

Seems a nightmare to simulate that properly in a game.
No wonder P´DOX took some abstracions. I feel with the programmer.

 

[Kovax]

So, fuel for fuel using ground units doesn't have to wait 1 day per tile to reach the airfield, or are you just saying that as the ground unit has to move to the airfield by land it drags its 15 day fuel supply with it?

A ground unit will carry its 15 day supply with it, so you can immediately share fuel and supplies with the aircraft when they arrive. That ground unit may still have to wait for its own supply train to catch up, which can be a real problem for units moving laterally across their supply chain. Units moving directly toward or away will have their supply chains adjust daily, but shifting laterally can sometimes cause the whole existing supply chain to restart, all supply in transit to be sent back to the capital, and a new supply line created from scratch. Just like the planes, you end up sitting for days or weeks until the fresh supplies arrive. Fortunately, as a ground unit, you've at least got a 15 day buffer.

Real-world units often had to wait for supplies from their assigned depot, but that usually didn't mean waiting for it to come all the way from the capital, unless the depot itself was tapped out. If Paradox had implemented supply depots as a function of the Corps or Army HQ, it would have made a lot more sense: supply would route from all sources (any province with IC) to the nearest "hungry" depot, with any excess being sent to a "hungrier" depot. Individual units would then draw their local supply lines from their assigned depots. Rather than have one or two main rail routes to the front, and trucks hauling things from the depots to the divisions, we have multiple supply lines all running from the capital to each division in a gigantic "star" pattern. Those lines shift around daily, even when the units aren't moving. The real wonder is that the current supply system works at all.

 

[Count Blue]

The real wonder is that the current supply system works at all.

I thought so myself when I observed the supply map over longer periods of time (weeks,months).
BTW
Your suggestion with the supply beeing routed over an Army HQ would make it almost like IRL.

 

[danhammer]

Something else about supply most players are not aware of. When you use strategic move for any units it effectively does the same thing as rebasing aircraft for that supply line to that unit. IE. The old supply line is disconnected and canceled and a new supply line gets established when the unit exits strategic movement. And again the delay happens.
A case in point when this really shows up is if you are playing as Germany and invade the USSR. Then strategic move some of your units deep inside of the USSR. You end up waiting a very long time to reestablish that units supply line. Always keep in mind your supply line chains. Make sure your ports can handle the amount of supplies you need. Upgrade infrastructure is something I am always doing when playing HOI3 and ports and airfields. And while we are at it a person should also understand that the infrastructure also modifies the rate at which your units regain org when resting in that tile or port or airfield. The higher the infrastructure the faster your org can regenerate. And that by itself can win wars. If you are always fighting units with less org than you have! The morale techs also impact org regain rate. But not as much as infrastructure does. Infrastructure has the biggest bang for the time spent on increasing org regain rate. And then your units also have to have supply in order to regain org in the first place. Which makes infrastructure improvement a must anyway even before investing in morale techs.

 

[Count Blue]

Upgrade infrastructure is something I am always doing when playing HOI3 and ports and airfields.

Interesting, I have read that many times.

I never upgrade Infra in USSR while doing Barbarossa because in my games it takes forever (something like 8 months) to complete a single level.
By the time the infra is upgraded to any reasonable level I have usually won or lost the war anyway.

I do upgrade the infra before Barbarossa up to the polish/soviet border and after bitter peace up to moskva and stalingrad but like I said it takes years and so it finishes usually 1944-45.

As a matter of fact I have learned how to live withthe low level infra in USSR.
I do upgrade sometimes ports and airfields because they dont take forever.

 

[Didz]

But it had (in WW2 talking about germany) to travel from the refineries to some central collection point then by rail to the front and there to the fuel depot of the army (not the armygroup!) and then be distributed to the troops needing fuel and supplies

True, but that's still a lot different to having all supplies originate from the nations capital.

Also did you know there is actually something like plane fuel which should be different from fuel for trucks and tanks (higher octane).

Yes, I did, and I also know there was a difference between bully beef and corned beef, but that doesn;t mean it needs to modelled in the game.

Seems a nightmare to simulate that properly in a game.
No wonder P´DOX took some abstractions. I feel with the programmer.

Not really campaign supply systems have been modelled by wargamers for decades and there are simple ways of producing the correct strategic considerations without involving a lot of complexity.

The most straight forward is merely to assume that supply lines are established to every forward unit from the nearest depot, and then to monitor the supply route and depot for interdiction's by enemy action.

As long as the route remains unbroken the forward unit remains supplied, and once broken the time the unit can continue unaffected depends on the distance from the break and the number of forward depots that have been established.

That basic system works effectively for just about any period with minor adjustment for for the cost of depots and their storage capacity (in days of supply). For a minor additional overhead, if one was using it for a modern campaign, one could even account separately for different types of fuel travelling along the same supply route and being stored at different depots.

 

[Count Blue]

True, but that's still a lot different to having all supplies originate from the nations capital.

Yes, I did, and I also know there was a difference between bully beef and corned beef, but that doesn;t mean it needs to modelled in the game.

If it came across different, I am sorry I didnt mean to be offensive at all.