BUG: Historical accuracy.

[Prufrock451]

Historical accuracy.

Couple of nitpicks.

1) Sinkiang. This area was actually under (technical) Kuomintang control. I would say the best way of simulating its de facto autonomy would be to make Sinkiang a puppet state of Nationalist China. Also, the Soviet Union should have military access to Sinkiang in all scenarios- historically, Stalin intervened several times to prop up the government (which was friendly to the Soviet Union).

The defeat of Japan should give both Chinese governments claims on Sinkiang and Tibet.

2) Tannu Tuva. In 1944, Tuva was annexed by the Soviet Union, in order to get hold of Tuva's increasingly valuable resources. In the game, since Tuva's in the Comintern, there's no way for Stalin to take them over.

I think an event would be the best way to handle it. And if Stalin takes the Bitter Peace, he would definitely have moved up the annexation to help soften the blow.

3) I don't know about you guys, but in my games Japan wipes out China and Germany mops up the Soviets easily 2 games out of three. The Americans spent $50 billion on Lend-Lease over the course of the war, an amount roughly equivalent to six months of production at 1941 pre-war levels. If (like me) you spend the first six months of 1941 as the US frantically re-arming, you know what kind of investment that means, and what it would mean to the Allied nations. The Lend-Lease to Britain, the USSR, and China _have_ to be included in the next patch.

 

[jdrou]

What exactly do you suggest in addition to the existing Lend-Lease events?

 

[Prufrock451]

I can't give you details at the moment, since I've already pilfered enough time from my employer. But the broad strokes-

In 1941 alone, the US should provide Britain with at least two squadrons of pre-war destroyers, and the US should get military access to the UK.

In 1941 and 1942 alone, the US and UK shipped the Soviets over 5000 tanks. As the war progressed, the Soviet Union received something like 20,000 armored trucks, and your guess is as good as mine how many motorized infantry units that represents.

You see that Lend-Lease as it stands is woefully underpowered. If you're interested, I can draw up some estimates that would be useful in game terms.

 

[Prufrock451]

I will withdraw my Lend-Lease complaint and bring it up in Suggestions>.

 

[Vulture]

Ok will post in BETA land...

 

[Prufrock451]

Cool, thanks. You might also want to look here and scroll down to "Tunganistan"- there was a civil war and Soviet intervention in Sinkiang in 1937.

http://www.buckyogi.addr.com/footnotes/natt.htm

 

[Vulture]

Allrighty... I discovered while scripting AON back in the EU II days that you are the man to contact for knowledge on obscure nations and events

 

[Prufrock451]

Aha! You dropped the "GFF", it threw me off.

I'm poking around under the hood- I'll post again if I find any more inaccuracies.

 

[Vulture]

Hehe yes, the same me...

 

[unmerged(5875)]

If u want to give USSR mot divisions or something to signify the lend-lease, thats not a bad idea, but DONT give the USSR tank divisions, because while the allies gave the USSR somwhere in the realm of 7-10,000 tanks, all but the real light weight scout tanks disappeared, because the Sherman (the main one sent) was a peice of crap compared to the soviet batle tanks, which is why no shermans ever showed up on the eastern front.

 

[Mordoch]

Originally posted by Darth Vader
If u want to give USSR mot divisions or something to signify the lend-lease, thats not a bad idea, but DONT give the USSR tank divisions, because while the allies gave the USSR somwhere in the realm of 7-10,000 tanks, all but the real light weight scout tanks disappeared, because the Sherman (the main one sent) was a peice of crap compared to the soviet batle tanks, which is why no shermans ever showed up on the eastern front.

This isn't exactly true. Sherman tanks were used in some numbers on the eastern front, and successfully took on Tiger and Panther tanks on some occassions. Read Commanding the Red Army's Sherman Tanks by Dmitry Loza for more information on the subject and a first hand account of their usage.

 

[unmerged(5875)]

why do i suspect that the russians were desperate for tanks at that point then? cause the engines in shermans were understrength, they had way to high siloute, their guns (in the base model which was the one heavily produced) was under gunned against Tigers (and other heavy models), and the armor was to light to face the Tigers high velocity gun. And i have to question how successfull that general was, since whenever the allies on the western front couldnt get immediate air support when a tiger or 2 would show up on the scene, the tiger could/would wipe out whole columns of tanks and armored vehicles (the allies were so scared of the Tiger, that Montgomery banned all news related to them). But my main point is, the vast majority of those shermans disappeared, so even though they might have used a few, the russians shouldnt get any armored divisions if its decided to give the USSR motorized divisions to represent the huge #s of trucks that the USA sent to them (which had motorized a large portion of the Red Army by 1945).

 

[unmerged(13601)]

Lend-lease for Russia

Well, the Russians weren't too ccritical of the Sherman. Some units were converted from T-34/85's to shermans. Reason, reliability. furthermore the Sherman was an excellent training vehicle requiring less maintenance than the Soviet tanks. You can find that story here under the heading of Lend-Lease Armored Fighting Vehicles. This document also shows the importance of Lend-Lease for the Soviets on other areas, in particular in regard to ammunition and explosives and jeeps and trucks. Other info on Lend-Lease for SU can be found here

For Vulture I'll give a quick abbreviation.

Lend-Lease provided:

- 60% of SU jeeps and trucks
- 33% ammunition and explosives
- 90% railroad tracks
- 60% aviation fuel
- 80% locomotives
- 80% railcars
- 45% copper ore
- 55% aluminum ore
- 30% tires
- 103,500 tons of rubber (UK)
- 30% machine tools
- 45% of toluene (needed for TNT production)

Furthermore UK sent 14% of its WWII armor production to the SU (mainly in '41 a lot of tanks were sent to russia, though needed in Egypt) and Canada sent practically 100% of its '41 and '42 armor production to SU.

It's difficult to model lend-lease in HOI correctly as for instance there is no need for railway stock in HOI (no land convoys). Rubber and oil can be sent (although in HOI SU has enough oil and there is no difference in aviation or automotive fuel). Ammo and tires are supplies, however if the AI in HOI receives supplies it will not lower supply production, it just stockpiles it. If IC's were considered heavy industrial production goods (armor plates, aluminum sheets, gears, ball bearings, engines, etc.) and were tradeable like rubber etc. (so stockpileable) then a lot of lend-lease could be in the form of convoys with IC (thus interceptable IC's). But in current HOI system lend-lease is hard to implement effectively.

p.s. I think lend-lease should be in convoy form -> interceptable by enemy unless enough destroyers are used.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by Darth Vader
why do i suspect that the russians were desperate for tanks at that point then? cause the engines in shermans were understrength, they had way to high siloute, their guns (in the base model which was the one heavily produced) was under gunned against Tigers (and other heavy models), and the armor was to light to face the Tigers high velocity gun. And i have to question how successfull that general was, since whenever the allies on the western front couldnt get immediate air support when a tiger or 2 would show up on the scene, the tiger could/would wipe out whole columns of tanks and armored vehicles (the allies were so scared of the Tiger, that Montgomery banned all news related to them). But my main point is, the vast majority of those shermans disappeared, so even though they might have used a few, the russians shouldnt get any armored divisions if its decided to give the USSR motorized divisions to represent the huge #s of trucks that the USA sent to them (which had motorized a large portion of the Red Army by 1945).

Young padawan, what was the chance that east front Sherman would face Tiger, and not Pzkpfw III or IV instead?

 

[Vulture]

No need to discuss it, doubt the Lend-Lease events will be changed that way.

 

[Vulture]

Btw, if you feel like such things need to be added, hop over to some user mod... C.O.R.E. or so