Bug 4567 - Sub Interceptions

[Barnacle Bill]

Re: Agreed Barnicle Bill

Originally posted by Odin1970
The other reality of the software industry is, you dont get that info upfront in the marketing campaign, you dont get the bug list, or the honorable intention of what is desired to be fixed in subsequent patches.

You're right - you don't. The hype is written by marketing weinies, based on the design goals. Unless it is a really limited game to start with, odds are several things won't work as advertised yet when the publisher pushes it out the door. Then one of two things happen. First, and pretty common, is there is no real attempt to fix it. Maybe a token patch to get the low-hanging fruit, but that's it. The second is you get a stream of patches, some even well after the programmers are onto new assignments. For example, Johan is still (in his no doubt abundent free time) working on yet another EU2 patch.

Let me tell you a little story. Long ago, in a galaxy not so far away, there was a really cool strategy game called "Buzz Aldrin's Race Into Space", or BARIS for short. You managed the space program for either the USA or USSR, trying to get to the moon first. Only game I ever saw that ever made EFFECTIVE use of FMV (in this case, historical space program film footage). It was HARD, even against the AI. CGW loved it. Buzz didn't have squat to do with it. Like EU it was based on a board game - in this case Task Force Games' "Liffoff". Unlike EU, the lead designer was the board game designer - dude by the name of Fritz Bronner (great guy, was all the time on the old Genie BBS for the game). This being in the stone age, the first edition of the game was on floppies and single-player only. The enhanced CD edition was to feature PBEM. Normally I don't give a rat's hindquarter for MP, but I was psyched for the tourney we BBS regulars had cooked up. Well, when it comes out, PBEM is broken because of a bug that insured a USSR defeat (the game controlled your budget according to prestige points - gained for successes, especially "firsts", lost for failures, especially getting your astronauts/cosmonauts planted in Arlington/the Kremlin Wall - but in PBEM mode the bug made the USSR get no points for "firsts"). Well, Fritz is a game designer, TV actor, WWI reinactor and all around great guy, but not a programmer. The programmer was on the staff of the publisher, Interplay (spit!). Despite the pleas of both Fritz and the programmer, and the howls of the fans, Interplay (spit!) would not let them fix it. It stands broken to this day.

That's how bad it can get. That ain't the Paradox way. Be glad

 

[Barnacle Bill]

Re: Agreed Barnicle Bill

Originally posted by Odin1970
The other reality of the software industry is, you dont get that info upfront in the marketing campaign, you dont get the bug list, or the honorable intention of what is desired to be fixed in subsequent patches.

You're right - you don't. The hype is written by marketing weinies, based on the design goals. Unless it is a really limited game to start with, odds are several things won't work as advertised yet when the publisher pushes it out the door. Then one of two things happen. First, and pretty common, is there is no real attempt to fix it. Maybe a token patch to get the low-hanging fruit, but that's it. The second is you get a stream of patches, some even well after the programmers are onto new assignments. For example, Johan is still (in his no doubt abundent free time) working on yet another EU2 patch.

Let me tell you a little story. Long ago, in a galaxy not so far away, there was a really cool strategy game called "Buzz Aldrin's Race Into Space", or BARIS for short. You managed the space program for either the USA or USSR, trying to get to the moon first. Only game I ever saw that ever made EFFECTIVE use of FMV (in this case, historical space program film footage). It was HARD, even against the AI. CGW loved it. Buzz didn't have squat to do with it. Like EU it was based on a board game - in this case Task Force Games' "Liffoff". Unlike EU, the lead designer was the board game designer - dude by the name of Fritz Bronner (great guy, was all the time on the old Genie BBS for the game). This being in the stone age, the first edition of the game was on floppies and single-player only. The enhanced CD edition was to feature PBEM. Normally I don't give a rat's hindquarter for MP, but I was psyched for the tourney we BBS regulars had cooked up. Well, when it comes out, PBEM is broken because of a bug that insured a USSR defeat (the game controlled your budget according to prestige points - gained for successes, especially "firsts", lost for failures, especially getting your astronauts/cosmonauts planted in Arlington/the Kremlin Wall - but in PBEM mode the bug made the USSR get no points for "firsts"). Well, Fritz is a game designer, TV actor, WWI reinactor and all around great guy, but not a programmer. The programmer was on the staff of the publisher, Interplay (spit!). Despite the pleas of both Fritz and the programmer, and the howls of the fans, Interplay (spit!) would not let them fix it. It stands broken to this day.

That's how bad it can get. That ain't the Paradox way. Be glad

 

[Barnacle Bill]

Re: Agreed Barnicle Bill

Originally posted by Odin1970
The other reality of the software industry is, you dont get that info upfront in the marketing campaign, you dont get the bug list, or the honorable intention of what is desired to be fixed in subsequent patches.

You're right - you don't. The hype is written by marketing weinies, based on the design goals. Unless it is a really limited game to start with, odds are several things won't work as advertised yet when the publisher pushes it out the door. Then one of two things happen. First, and pretty common, is there is no real attempt to fix it. Maybe a token patch to get the low-hanging fruit, but that's it. The second is you get a stream of patches, some even well after the programmers are onto new assignments. For example, Johan is still (in his no doubt abundent free time) working on yet another EU2 patch.

Let me tell you a little story. Long ago, in a galaxy not so far away, there was a really cool strategy game called "Buzz Aldrin's Race Into Space", or BARIS for short. You managed the space program for either the USA or USSR, trying to get to the moon first. Only game I ever saw that ever made EFFECTIVE use of FMV (in this case, historical space program film footage). It was HARD, even against the AI. CGW loved it. Buzz didn't have squat to do with it. Like EU it was based on a board game - in this case Task Force Games' "Liffoff". Unlike EU, the lead designer was the board game designer - dude by the name of Fritz Bronner (great guy, was all the time on the old Genie BBS for the game). This being in the stone age, the first edition of the game was on floppies and single-player only. The enhanced CD edition was to feature PBEM. Normally I don't give a rat's hindquarter for MP, but I was psyched for the tourney we BBS regulars had cooked up. Well, when it comes out, PBEM is broken because of a bug that insured a USSR defeat (the game controlled your budget according to prestige points - gained for successes, especially "firsts", lost for failures, especially getting your astronauts/cosmonauts planted in Arlington/the Kremlin Wall - but in PBEM mode the bug made the USSR get no points for "firsts"). Well, Fritz is a game designer, TV actor, WWI reinactor and all around great guy, but not a programmer. The programmer was on the staff of the publisher, Interplay (spit!). Despite the pleas of both Fritz and the programmer, and the howls of the fans, Interplay (spit!) would not let them fix it. It stands broken to this day.

That's how bad it can get. That ain't the Paradox way. Be glad

 

[Barnacle Bill]

Re: Agreed Barnicle Bill

Originally posted by Odin1970
The other reality of the software industry is, you dont get that info upfront in the marketing campaign, you dont get the bug list, or the honorable intention of what is desired to be fixed in subsequent patches.

You're right - you don't. The hype is written by marketing weinies, based on the design goals. Unless it is a really limited game to start with, odds are several things won't work as advertised yet when the publisher pushes it out the door. Then one of two things happen. First, and pretty common, is there is no real attempt to fix it. Maybe a token patch to get the low-hanging fruit, but that's it. The second is you get a stream of patches, some even well after the programmers are onto new assignments. For example, Johan is still (in his no doubt abundent free time) working on yet another EU2 patch.

Let me tell you a little story. Long ago, in a galaxy not so far away, there was a really cool strategy game called "Buzz Aldrin's Race Into Space", or BARIS for short. You managed the space program for either the USA or USSR, trying to get to the moon first. Only game I ever saw that ever made EFFECTIVE use of FMV (in this case, historical space program film footage). It was HARD, even against the AI. CGW loved it. Buzz didn't have squat to do with it. Like EU it was based on a board game - in this case Task Force Games' "Liffoff". Unlike EU, the lead designer was the board game designer - dude by the name of Fritz Bronner (great guy, was all the time on the old Genie BBS for the game). This being in the stone age, the first edition of the game was on floppies and single-player only. The enhanced CD edition was to feature PBEM. Normally I don't give a rat's hindquarter for MP, but I was psyched for the tourney we BBS regulars had cooked up. Well, when it comes out, PBEM is broken because of a bug that insured a USSR defeat (the game controlled your budget according to prestige points - gained for successes, especially "firsts", lost for failures, especially getting your astronauts/cosmonauts planted in Arlington/the Kremlin Wall - but in PBEM mode the bug made the USSR get no points for "firsts"). Well, Fritz is a game designer, TV actor, WWI reinactor and all around great guy, but not a programmer. The programmer was on the staff of the publisher, Interplay (spit!). Despite the pleas of both Fritz and the programmer, and the howls of the fans, Interplay (spit!) would not let them fix it. It stands broken to this day.

That's how bad it can get. That ain't the Paradox way. Be glad

 

[Barnacle Bill]

Re: Agreed Barnicle Bill

Originally posted by Odin1970
The other reality of the software industry is, you dont get that info upfront in the marketing campaign, you dont get the bug list, or the honorable intention of what is desired to be fixed in subsequent patches.

You're right - you don't. The hype is written by marketing weinies, based on the design goals. Unless it is a really limited game to start with, odds are several things won't work as advertised yet when the publisher pushes it out the door. Then one of two things happen. First, and pretty common, is there is no real attempt to fix it. Maybe a token patch to get the low-hanging fruit, but that's it. The second is you get a stream of patches, some even well after the programmers are onto new assignments. For example, Johan is still (in his no doubt abundent free time) working on yet another EU2 patch.

Let me tell you a little story. Long ago, in a galaxy not so far away, there was a really cool strategy game called "Buzz Aldrin's Race Into Space", or BARIS for short. You managed the space program for either the USA or USSR, trying to get to the moon first. Only game I ever saw that ever made EFFECTIVE use of FMV (in this case, historical space program film footage). It was HARD, even against the AI. CGW loved it. Buzz didn't have squat to do with it. Like EU it was based on a board game - in this case Task Force Games' "Liffoff". Unlike EU, the lead designer was the board game designer - dude by the name of Fritz Bronner (great guy, was all the time on the old Genie BBS for the game). This being in the stone age, the first edition of the game was on floppies and single-player only. The enhanced CD edition was to feature PBEM. Normally I don't give a rat's hindquarter for MP, but I was psyched for the tourney we BBS regulars had cooked up. Well, when it comes out, PBEM is broken because of a bug that insured a USSR defeat (the game controlled your budget according to prestige points - gained for successes, especially "firsts", lost for failures, especially getting your astronauts/cosmonauts planted in Arlington/the Kremlin Wall - but in PBEM mode the bug made the USSR get no points for "firsts"). Well, Fritz is a game designer, TV actor, WWI reinactor and all around great guy, but not a programmer. The programmer was on the staff of the publisher, Interplay (spit!). Despite the pleas of both Fritz and the programmer, and the howls of the fans, Interplay (spit!) would not let them fix it. It stands broken to this day.

That's how bad it can get. That ain't the Paradox way. Be glad

 

[Dinsdale]

First of all, if this is a mistake, then the guys running the bug forum should not feel bad about it. That forum looks absolutely swamped, and the fact that those guys keep up, and organize a list in their own free time should commend them to everyone here.

Secondly, Trip, you're position on the NDA is very grand now that you privy to the betas. However, is a thread such as this one damaging? Has anyone ranted about Paradox? Is there anything other than the bug in question which has been discussed? Any further avenues of communication which brought some ideas together?

 

[Barnacle Bill]

Re: Agreed Barnicle Bill

Originally posted by Odin1970
The other reality of the software industry is, you dont get that info upfront in the marketing campaign, you dont get the bug list, or the honorable intention of what is desired to be fixed in subsequent patches.

You're right - you don't. The hype is written by marketing weinies, based on the design goals. Unless it is a really limited game to start with, odds are several things won't work as advertised yet when the publisher pushes it out the door. Then one of two things happen. First, and pretty common, is there is no real attempt to fix it. Maybe a token patch to get the low-hanging fruit, but that's it. The second is you get a stream of patches, some even well after the programmers are onto new assignments. For example, Johan is still (in his no doubt abundent free time) working on yet another EU2 patch.

Let me tell you a little story. Long ago, in a galaxy not so far away, there was a really cool strategy game called "Buzz Aldrin's Race Into Space", or BARIS for short. You managed the space program for either the USA or USSR, trying to get to the moon first. Only game I ever saw that ever made EFFECTIVE use of FMV (in this case, historical space program film footage). It was HARD, even against the AI. CGW loved it. Buzz didn't have squat to do with it. Like EU it was based on a board game - in this case Task Force Games' "Liffoff". Unlike EU, the lead designer was the board game designer - dude by the name of Fritz Bronner (great guy, was all the time on the old Genie BBS for the game). This being in the stone age, the first edition of the game was on floppies and single-player only. The enhanced CD edition was to feature PBEM. Normally I don't give a rat's hindquarter for MP, but I was psyched for the tourney we BBS regulars had cooked up. Well, when it comes out, PBEM is broken because of a bug that insured a USSR defeat (the game controlled your budget according to prestige points - gained for successes, especially "firsts", lost for failures, especially getting your astronauts/cosmonauts planted in Arlington/the Kremlin Wall - but in PBEM mode the bug made the USSR get no points for "firsts"). Well, Fritz is a game designer, TV actor, WWI reinactor and all around great guy, but not a programmer. The programmer was on the staff of the publisher, Interplay (spit!). Despite the pleas of both Fritz and the programmer, and the howls of the fans, Interplay (spit!) would not let them fix it. It stands broken to this day.

That's how bad it can get. That ain't the Paradox way. Be glad

 

[Dinsdale]

First of all, if this is a mistake, then the guys running the bug forum should not feel bad about it. That forum looks absolutely swamped, and the fact that those guys keep up, and organize a list in their own free time should commend them to everyone here.

Secondly, Trip, you're position on the NDA is very grand now that you privy to the betas. However, is a thread such as this one damaging? Has anyone ranted about Paradox? Is there anything other than the bug in question which has been discussed? Any further avenues of communication which brought some ideas together?

 

[unmerged(7986)]

Holy multi-post Batman!

 

[unmerged(1357)]

Originally posted by Johan
This bug was never mentioned to be filed as a wontfix.

My heart (it is not of iron) starts to beat again. Thanx for the info,

Filippo

 

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Dinsdale
Secondly, Trip, you're position on the NDA is very grand now that you privy to the betas. However, is a thread such as this one damaging? Has anyone ranted about Paradox? Is there anything other than the bug in question which has been discussed? Any further avenues of communication which brought some ideas together?

One thing leads to another, people wonder why Paradox isn't commenting on a certain issue, people ask if things are done, etc. etc. While not exactly 'damaging', it's certainly unecassary clutter that would be inevitable should the NDA content be public. Generally, it's more trouble than it's worth.

 

[Dorlarin]

Nice not just a double post, but 9 of the same one

That must be a new record Barnacle

 

[unmerged(1357)]

Originally posted by Patrick Yarnell
This attitude that we as customers should not discuss our concerns upsets me a bit.

Me too. I support Paradox a LOT. I've bought all of their games (except Svea Rike), I've written very good reviews of their games. Hey! I've even written a special article about EU for an italian web site! I'm not used to bash or rant, I want this to be clear, but I can't help to be concerned when I read that the whole naval system won't be fixed. I'm relieved by Johan's words, but I still have the right to discuss the game with my fellow players. I strongly believe that we support the game even with a discussin like this, giving true (and even strong) feedback to the programmers. We are concerned because we really LIKE the game, or at least what the game could be. HOI could be a real masterpiece, something to remember and play for years. Right now this is not the case. A WW2 grand strategy game should allow u-boot strategies and Pearl Harbour attacks. As it is now I would have prefered a completely abstract way to handel subs. Abstract can be very effective and realistic, just look at The Operational Art of War 1 & 2, that handles Air Force on a pure abstract way making it simply wonderful.

Filippo

 

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Vertigo024
Nice not just a double post, but 9 of the same one

That must be a new record Barnacle

Guess he's really passionate about this issue.

 

[unmerged(13293)]

Couldnt help but giggle

 

[unmerged(13997)]

Naval system, WHAT Naval System!!??

Originally posted by whyamihere
Besides which, if I am right regarding the bonuses they give, I'd like to know why? Why should I get an advantage in combat for spotting someone

Dont miss me; I really hate the Naval, let's call it 'System', but If you see the enemy first and he doesn't, he's a toast. (Remember Midway?)

We'll the naval, Aerial systems must be revised but i'm afraid we must wait until HoI2 cause it's not a revision but a total code re-writng what i have in mind

 

[unmerged(12746)]

Barnicle Bill

I missed your post mind reposting?

As to the NDA I can live with not having it, but what a some fail to mention is not having it leads to strings like these.

Its unrealistic to think that players arent going to want to know whats going on, particularly when there are forums set up for feed back.

Clearly the instrument is given, if it wasnt desired or was some how a hinderance to the process the forum shouldnt be here for us to post these questions, or a rule should be imposed upon them as such.

Another bug ?

Odin

 

[unmerged(576)]

Re: Naval system, WHAT Naval System!!??

Originally posted by von Gonsez
Dont miss me; I really hate the Naval, let's call it 'System', but If you see the enemy first and he doesn't, he's a toast. (Remember Midway?)

Yes, a good point. I was thinking more along the lines of ships other than carriers.