Buffing the Tiger I

[IS-2]

Because if you were most people would pick the tiger since it's the better tank. I rarely want a 20fav turd mobile (my 3AD deck had one in B for shoving through choke points and zero in C), but a 1.2km he slinging beast with max range panther penetrating AP at 2 stars in my 3AD deck? That's pants changing levels of good. Compared to the 76 Sherman it's a fucking monster.

Edit: my jumbo opinion might change now that I can reliably repel the HS129 with 3AD AA before it shoots. I just don't see much reason to bring it when I've got Shermans and smoke.

when using no tactic : tiger is better

when using tactic : jumbo is better

when fighting noob: tiger is better

when fighting skill: jumbo is better

jumbo thank to extreme armour has more battlefield influence... he can roll up and dumpster an entire portion of your flank while you avoid LoS Pak 43 or stun them with 3ADs great artillery. while a tiger if he wants to safely engage has to sit at max range and lob 5 HE shells (since a 6 pdr will wipe this out - dont get started on 17 pdr or 76mm), when a jumbo will move in and delete all infantry and AT guns with .50 cal and .30 cal MG, and faster firing 5 HE cannon. and once the tiger/panther is forced into close combat to deal with said jumbo the shoe is on the other foot thanks to stabilizer.

if u dont use jumbo in 3AD i really question your gameplay.... it is like BMPT if the BMPT could blast away tanks that cost more than itself at <600m combat.. it is power unit that forces your enemy to react because of how hard it is to deal with when play correctly: staying out of range battle, cleansing the map of anything short of cats and if u want to deal with it u drive your panther or tiger into a compromise position.

 

[dmdelor]

a tiger if he wants to safely engage has to sit at max range and lob 5 HE shells (since a 6 pdr will wipe this out - dont get started on 17 pdr or 76mm)

Err, a 6 pdr can't even penetrate a Tiger E until 900m, and that's a sub-3% chance. Even at 600m you're less than 30% pen.

Tigers are certainly penetrable without extreme firepower or closeness, and dramatically moreso than a Jumbo, but you're probably doing something wrong if you're getting them wiped out by 6 pdrs on a regular basis.

 

[dmdelor]

As an extra note, even a 76mm has a sub-20% chance of penetrating a Tiger E at maximum range. You've pretty much got to get into the top end AP 16 stuff to be a reliable threat to a Tiger at long range without a lucky roll. You probably don't want to be driving your 240-point tank into the 76mm gun, of course, but it's not like it's completely unprotected.

A further note about that AP 16 stuff: Four of the Allied decks don't get them, and the Canadians don't get it until Phase C, after the Tiger Es have had a whole phase to roll around with pretty decent protection. That's more than half the Allied decks, and of the four that do get phase B AP 16 include the not especially popular Poles and the extremely unpopular Guards.

As you'll see from my first post, I do pretty much agree that the Tiger looks like garbage next to the Panther and Firefly and the prices ought to be tweaked, but I think you're overstating it's vulnerability a bit, here.

 

[Rojan]

As an extra note, even a 76mm has a sub-20% chance of penetrating a Tiger E at maximum range. You've pretty much got to get into the top end AP 16 stuff to be a reliable threat to a Tiger at long range without a lucky roll. You probably don't want to be driving your 240-point tank into the 76mm gun, of course, but it's not like it's completely unprotected.

A further note about that AP 16 stuff: Four of the Allied decks don't get them, and the Canadians don't get it until Phase C, after the Tiger Es have had a whole phase to roll around with pretty decent protection. That's more than half the Allied decks, and of the four that do get phase B AP 16 include the not especially popular Poles and the extremely unpopular Guards.

As you'll see from my first post, I do pretty much agree that the Tiger looks like garbage next to the Panther and Firefly and the prices ought to be tweaked, but I think you're overstating it's vulnerability a bit, here.

"not popular poles" lol

The Poles are one of the best armored decks in the game. They're just underrated because they take a brain to use.

 

[IS-2]

Err, a 6 pdr can't even penetrate a Tiger E until 900m, and that's a sub-3% chance. Even at 600m you're less than 30% pen.

Tigers are certainly penetrable without extreme firepower or closeness, and dramatically moreso than a Jumbo, but you're probably doing something wrong if you're getting them wiped out by 6 pdrs on a regular basis.

max range pen means little when using an AT gun....... compare a pak 38 hitting a jumbo to a 6 pdr hitting a tiger, then look at the cost of the tank. a pak 38 hitting an M4A3 sherman is the same AP/AV as a 6 pdr hitting a tiger... but look at the cost of the tiger

and i agree, if you are losing a tiger to a 6 pdr often you are doing something wrong. step up ur game maybe???

As an extra note, even a 76mm has a sub-20% chance of penetrating a Tiger E at maximum range. You've pretty much got to get into the top end AP 16 stuff to be a reliable threat to a Tiger at long range without a lucky roll. You probably don't want to be driving your 240-point tank into the 76mm gun, of course, but it's not like it's completely unprotected.

A further note about that AP 16 stuff: Four of the Allied decks don't get them, and the Canadians don't get it until Phase C, after the Tiger Es have had a whole phase to roll around with pretty decent protection. That's more than half the Allied decks, and of the four that do get phase B AP 16 include the not especially popular Poles and the extremely unpopular Guards.

As you'll see from my first post, I do pretty much agree that the Tiger looks like garbage next to the Panther and Firefly and the prices ought to be tweaked, but I think you're overstating it's vulnerability a bit, here.

max range pen with AT gun means nothing.

there is no issue with AP 16... issue is with tiger.

 

[pbatt]

Anything with effective AP greater than tiger armor facing it can kill a tiger already falling back.

There really is nothing wrong with the tiger in the 2 decks the unit comes in.

There is no point in taking a tiger over a panther G. But there is only one deck that has this choice anyway.

Tiger E vs Panther A / Bef Panther is personal preference ( the following is only comparing these 3 units )

- tiger can be buffed to vet 3, yielding higher accuracy than panther @ vet 2 and better suppression resistance.
- tiger is more resilient to indirect fire from bombs, rockets, arty thanks to extra side armor which in turn yields higher suppression resistance from these sources. ( magical HE damage charts )
- tiger has significantly higher side armor
- tiger has better HE shell than panther
- panther has higher ROF at vet 1 than vet 3 tiger
- panther has better AP
- panther has better frontal armor

( this does not take into account crits vs destroyed chance )
Chance of killing an 11 FAV unit on first shot @ max range ( your favorite Firefly or 76 lets say):
with vet 2 tiger = 58% * 41% = 23.78% ---vet 3 tiger 72% * 41%= 29.52%
with vet 1 panther 41% * 72% = 29.52% --- with vet 2 panther 58% * 72%= 41.76%
@1000m as follows above
Tiger --- 58% * 72% = 41.76% -- 72% * 72% = 51.84%
Panther A / Bef --- 41% * 92% = 37.72% -- 58% * 92% = 53.36%

12% better chance on first shot of penetration for panther.
14% better chance to hit for tiger.

The closer the distance, the less difference between first shot kill chances thanks to our lovely 2d6 curve.

Where this can be interesting is the tiger has a better chance to hit an AT gun for higher amounts of suppression on said AT gun than a panther assuming both have leaders.

Either way, you take a card of 4 panther A in lehr because the card is just so worth it. This is mostly a battle over the tiger E vs Bef Panther in phase B.

Tiger > Panther D

Bef Tiger isn't worth it since it can't be buffed to vet 3. If you want a command tank, take Bef Panther or Bef Panzer IV.

EDIT:
Tiger E vs Firefly Kill Chance

TLR - Tiger E @ vet 2 has higher chance to kill a firefly on first shot than firefly of killing a Tiger E @ vet 1. @ vet 2 it is equal. @ vet 3 well sucks to be you firefly.

 

[Claremont Waltz]

when using no tactic : tiger is better

when using tactic : jumbo is better

when fighting noob: tiger is better

when fighting skill: jumbo is better

jumbo thank to extreme armour has more battlefield influence... he can roll up and dumpster an entire portion of your flank while you avoid LoS Pak 43 or stun them with 3ADs great artillery. while a tiger if he wants to safely engage has to sit at max range and lob 5 HE shells (since a 6 pdr will wipe this out - dont get started on 17 pdr or 76mm), when a jumbo will move in and delete all infantry and AT guns with .50 cal and .30 cal MG, and faster firing 5 HE cannon. and once the tiger/panther is forced into close combat to deal with said jumbo the shoe is on the other foot thanks to stabilizer.

So you agree with me that it's only useful for busting through choke points or side positions. Against low and mid tier AT guns it works fine, against large concentrations or heavier stuff or enemy tanks it is useless because it has a Sherman gun, so you'd have to bring your 200 beast into close range to get anywhere.

And yeah, arty in 3AD is great. I've brought it up a couple times now. It's why I feel comfortable relying on the base Sherman (which has better vet, is more card efficient, costs less and has the same gun) and only bringing one Jumbo. Because while you imply the Jumbo can just wander around the field at random, it is always vulnerable to air, side shots, some frontal shots, sources of stuns that it can't bully.

if u dont use jumbo in 3AD i really question your gameplay.... it is like BMPT if the BMPT could blast away tanks that cost more than itself at <600m combat.. it is power unit that forces your enemy to react because of how hard it is to deal with when play correctly: staying out of range battle, cleansing the map of anything short of cats and if u want to deal with it u drive your panther or tiger into a compromise position.

The BMPT main gun plus its AGL stuns can take down tanks just fine. It also needs to be supported by infantry, used in close areas in small numbers and kept well clear of dangerous AT weapons.

Much like the Jumbo.

You mention one of the big reasons I dislike bringing out the Jumbo : it forces people to react by buying up heavy AT. Heavy AT like the pak43 is a manageable danger for a Jumbo but a complete field closer for standard Shermans until it is found and killed or smoked off. Since I rely on those standard Shermans, I'd rather they not.

I think we play very differently and that's fine. Y u heff 2 b hatin?

Could Tiger E do with a price buff? Maybe. It does feel a little pricey, and I know I'm not the only one who when fighting British decks tends not to bring it out. It is definitely a good tank, but it isn't always a sufficiently better tank in all situations than the Panther. But I'd rather you made the case for it needing a buff by referring to the strength or weakness of the decks containing it rather than arguing vacuously in a vacuum. 12SS doesn't stand out to me as a deck in dire need of buffs, and I'd prefer PzLhr not become even more of a 10v10 noob slayer.

 

[Herr_Robert]

I'm a bit above average myself and mostly play against other average players. In that context I think that the Tiger I is cost-effective at $240. The Germans generally have superior AP power over the Allies, and on top of that many of the tanks and TDs equipped with 17-Pdrs have poor availability per card and/or don't become available until phase C.

 

[dmdelor]

The Poles are one of the best armored decks in the game. They're just underrated because they take a brain to use.

Hey, I run the Poles myself. Unpopular doesn't mean bad.

max range pen means little when using an AT gun.......

max range pen with AT gun means nothing.

Well, given that in the post I was replying to you're saying that a tiger needs to sit at maximum range to safely engage and a 6 pdr will wipe him out, it seems like a fair point to raise.

 

[IS-2]

Anything with effective AP greater than tiger armor facing it can kill a tiger already falling back.

There really is nothing wrong with the tiger in the 2 decks the unit comes in.

There is no point in taking a tiger over a panther G. But there is only one deck that has this choice anyway.

Tiger E vs Panther A / Bef Panther is personal preference ( the following is only comparing these 3 units )

- tiger can be buffed to vet 3, yielding higher accuracy than panther @ vet 2 and better suppression resistance.
- tiger is more resilient to indirect fire from bombs, rockets, arty thanks to extra side armor which in turn yields higher suppression resistance from these sources. ( magical HE damage charts )
- tiger has significantly higher side armor
- tiger has better HE shell than panther
- panther has higher ROF at vet 1 than vet 3 tiger
- panther has better AP
- panther has better frontal armor

( this does not take into account crits vs destroyed chance )
Chance of killing an 11 FAV unit on first shot @ max range ( your favorite Firefly or 76 lets say):
with vet 2 tiger = 58% * 41% = 23.78% ---vet 3 tiger 72% * 41%= 29.52%
with vet 1 panther 41% * 72% = 29.52% --- with vet 2 panther 58% * 72%= 41.76%
@1000m as follows above
Tiger --- 58% * 72% = 41.76% -- 72% * 72% = 51.84%
Panther A / Bef --- 41% * 92% = 37.72% -- 58% * 92% = 53.36%

12% better chance on first shot of penetration for panther.
14% better chance to hit for tiger.

The closer the distance, the less difference between first shot kill chances thanks to our lovely 2d6 curve.

Where this can be interesting is the tiger has a better chance to hit an AT gun for higher amounts of suppression on said AT gun than a panther assuming both have leaders.

Either way, you take a card of 4 panther A in lehr because the card is just so worth it. This is mostly a battle over the tiger E vs Bef Panther in phase B.

Tiger > Panther D

Bef Tiger isn't worth it since it can't be buffed to vet 3. If you want a command tank, take Bef Panther or Bef Panzer IV.

EDIT:
Tiger E vs Firefly Kill Chance

TLR - Tiger E @ vet 2 has higher chance to kill a firefly on first shot than firefly of killing a Tiger E @ vet 1. @ vet 2 it is equal. @ vet 3 well sucks to be you firefly.

ofc, firefly is at disadvantage because it has 1 less vet. i was talking pure stats because that is was cost is based off of. bef panther is vet 2 btw.......... so your calculations is disingenuous. and in your list comparing panther to tiger you are not fully weighting the advantage of armour for the panther... it is much more important than 1 extra HE and some side armour.

and why are u comparing vet 3 tiger against firefly in straight up gun duel? my entire point of OP was complaining about its vulnerability and stats for the price - not in gun duel with a firefly. again veterancy is not a factor in price.... and yes, tiger is better than panther D as i already said. but that is because panther D is garbage but still has a use cuz you can get only 1 tiger... (in 12th)

and well... as i have shown u in game your tigers is a target practice for the 76 w.

So you agree with me that it's only useful for busting through choke points or side positions. Against low and mid tier AT guns it works fine, against large concentrations or heavier stuff or enemy tanks it is useless because it has a Sherman gun, so you'd have to bring your 200 beast into close range to get anywhere.

map dependant.....

"low and mid tier AT gun"..? no. any AT gun that is not a pak 43 within 1000m. against large concentrations u do not send in a lone jumbo..... u do a proper combined arms push, because that is how you defeat that enemy force composition

You mention one of the big reasons I dislike bringing out the Jumbo : it forces people to react by buying up heavy AT. Heavy AT like the pak43 is a manageable danger for a Jumbo but a complete field closer for standard Shermans until it is found and killed or smoked off. Since I rely on those standard Shermans, I'd rather they not.

this is why the jumbo is so good XD

when u are buying a jumbo u are forcing a guaranteed 135 point reaction with a 200 point unit. when u buy a tiger you are forcing 100-120 point reaction that can both easily kill it and it cost 240 point.

i know they react with heavy AT - so i play accordingly with the superior information i have and nullify their 135 point investment. knowing exactly what the enemy will do gives u an enormous advantage.. why is this a bad thing

Could Tiger E do with a price buff? Maybe. It does feel a little pricey, and I know I'm not the only one who when fighting British decks tends not to bring it out. It is definitely a good tank, but it isn't always a sufficiently better tank in all situations than the Panther. But I'd rather you made the case for it needing a buff by referring to the strength or weakness of the decks containing it rather than arguing vacuously in a vacuum. 12SS doesn't stand out to me as a deck in dire need of buffs, and I'd prefer PzLhr not become even more of a 10v10 noob slayer.

well, i agree with 12th SS not really needing the tiger buff no matter how justified stats wise. but i think lehr does.... and id rather not base divisional balance around 10v10 even the tiniest bit.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

I'd like Wittman moved to Lehr btw.

I need it for muh realisms in my small "Killing Wittmann" scenario. The platoon of 4 Tigers just doesn't feel right without Wittmann himself in it.

 

[IronHat]

I'd like Wittman moved to Lehr btw.

I need it for muh realisms in my small "Killing Wittmann" scenario. The platoon of 4 Tigers just doesn't feel right without Wittmann himself in it.

Wittman died working with the 12thSS

 

[1776ZOOMSNIPE1911]

I had some thought about the tiger and the Firefly in relation to the 12th ss.

I feel that a compromise is in order.

The phase a Firefly is a tank that has both it's lovers and haters. By moving the Firefly to phase b it will no longer be a no brainer at King at phase a.
In its place we can move a single card of one tiger. Having the tiger at phase A will allow it to have a period where it is King of the battlefield like it was in real life. Being at phase A it will be possible to use it without having to worry about allies super at like the 76mm and 17pdr.

Pros

• Firefly is no longer a gimmick must pick
  • People wanting 12ss Firefly need are satisfied
• Tiger is now relevant in the Battle
  • People wanting tiger buff are satisfied

 

[Karlburg]

I had some thought about the tiger and the Firefly in relation to the 12th ss.

I feel that a compromise is in order.

The phase a Firefly is a tank that has both it's lovers and haters. By moving the Firefly to phase b it will no longer be a no brainer at King at phase a.
In its place we can move a single card of one tiger. Having the tiger at phase A will allow it to have a period where it is King of the battlefield like it was in real life. Being at phase A it will be possible to use it without having to worry about allies super at like the 76mm and 17pdr.

Pros

• Firefly is no longer a gimmick must pick
  • People wanting 12ss Firefly need are satisfied
• Tiger is now relevant in the Battle
  • People wanting tiger buff are satisfied

That's such a nutty idea that i'm not even sure where this comes from.

The Tiger is much, much more of a threat than the beute firefly, especially with double vet. I don't think you really understand the game balance if you make this suggestion. I think the beute firefly is largely fine because it doesn't have vet, has limited side armor, and no HE. Putting in a tank with good side armor, HE, vet.. It basically wrecks any opposing armor in a deck that already has a pretty decent selection of units in phase A.

 

[fufubear]

I had some thought about the tiger and the Firefly in relation to the 12th ss.

I feel that a compromise is in order.

The phase a Firefly is a tank that has both it's lovers and haters. By moving the Firefly to phase b it will no longer be a no brainer at King at phase a.
In its place we can move a single card of one tiger. Having the tiger at phase A will allow it to have a period where it is King of the battlefield like it was in real life. Being at phase A it will be possible to use it without having to worry about allies super at like the 76mm and 17pdr.

Pros

• Firefly is no longer a gimmick must pick
  • People wanting 12ss Firefly need are satisfied
• Tiger is now relevant in the Battle
  • People wanting tiger buff are satisfied

The tiger wasn't king of the battlefield in 1944.

 

[Nebelwerfer 42]

I had some thought about the tiger and the Firefly in relation to the 12th ss.

I feel that a compromise is in order.

The phase a Firefly is a tank that has both it's lovers and haters. By moving the Firefly to phase b it will no longer be a no brainer at King at phase a.
In its place we can move a single card of one tiger. Having the tiger at phase A will allow it to have a period where it is King of the battlefield like it was in real life. Being at phase A it will be possible to use it without having to worry about allies super at like the 76mm and 17pdr.

Pros

• Firefly is no longer a gimmick must pick
  • People wanting 12ss Firefly need are satisfied
• Tiger is now relevant in the Battle
  • People wanting tiger buff are satisfied

This is a joke, right? The Tiger would be disgustingly overpowered in Phase A, no allied gun or tank would be able to reliably pen it at range, it could subsequently one shot every tank or vehicle the allies field in Phase A, and would lock down any enemy infantry too.

 

[Rojan]

flaming blue skull man strikes again

 

[IronHat]

If you want to rebalance the tiger's price do it for every tank in the game. Don't just "rebalance" the price for one tank when everything is a mess.

Let's say I agree that the Tiger is too expensive compared to say the Panther G, so is numerous other tank like the 75mm sherman and stug. The queue for price rebalancing is insanely long.

there's also the fact German tank slot are insanely more powerful than what the Allies get. One unit of vet 2 tiger is more useful than one unit of vet 0 FF.

 

[Rojan]

If you want to rebalance the tiger's price do it for every tank in the game. Don't just "rebalance" the price for one tank when everything is a mess.

Let's say I agree that the Tiger is too expensive compared to say the Panther G, so is numerous other tank like the 75mm sherman and stug. The queue for price rebalancing is insanely long.

there's also the fact German tank slot are insanely more powerful than what the Allies get.

Medium tanks aren't overpriced.

 

[IronHat]

Medium tanks aren't overpriced.

is that based on any calculation or just "feel". Unless there's a uniformed formula to even form a basis, any balancing based on "feel" will inevitable lead to double standard.

and yes, I do have a formula:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/proposal-for-determining-tank-cost.1025072/

using that formula I created, tiger tank comes to 204, or 205 rounding up. So I will concede that Tiger is too expensive for their effectiveness, but so are medium tank in general.

jumbo will be 220.