I know Religious Bonuses Elimination Thread isn't statistically representative but when 40 pages of discussion rate buddhist denominations - fourth global religion - as almost the worst religion of all possible, worse than primitive pagans - something feels weird. And many people critize horrible Karma penalties.
So, let's paste a post I did some time ago while analyzing Karma...
HOW KARMA SYSTEM WORKS IN THEORY:
The meter is between two extremes, -100 and +100, with 0 in the middle. Unlike Piety or Patriarch Influence, in this system your goal is not to go full throttle to one extreme but to remain balanced. Between -25 and +25 karma points you get very nice bonuses of +5% discipline and +1 diplomatic reputation. These are among the best, or the best, military and diplomatic modifiers and no other religion has them (except interchangeable 2 of 6 Hindu deities, but taking both bonuses at once is impossible). Between -50 to -25 and +25 to +50 points you get no bonuses. Lower than -50 you get horrifying -10% discipline penalty while higher than +50 you get -2 diplo reputation. The goal is to remain between -25 or +25.
Karma negative or positive points are gained from events or actions: positive karma is brought by honoring alliances, releasing nations/vassals/provinces, negative karma is brought by war declarations and taking provinces in peace deals.
So, in theory you need to carefully balance karma and everything is fine! Well...
The problem isn't that expanding in buddhism is impossible but rather the weird and clearly unbalanced way karma system works; in my game as Lan Xang I have spent decades sitting on no bonuses or penalties and I had no way of countering them, the gameplay was not 'remain balanced' but very heavily skewed towards negative side. This felt very awkward.
HOW KARMA SYSTEM WORKS IN PRACTICE
Karma meter is fun, events are very interesting and generally the game was cool. In the same time, however, the longer game was going the more I have noticed several serious issues with balance and overall system working not quite as designed.
To put it shortly, current Karma meter is not about 'remain balanced', like Paradox devs designed, but about 'desperately try to not be negative'. I have never got over 30+ karma, not to mention 50. Meanwhile I constantly had to fight bravely to not fall into the pit of -10% discipline horror. It was not balanced at all; if I was going to calculate, I'd say I have spent 2% of gameplay time being over +25 karma and 20-40% of it being under -25, with several long periods of being below -50 or even at -100. Overall I am afraid even 10% of a game lenght was spent under -50.
In the earliest period of a game I had not big problems because I was waging wars and diplomacy and Indochina where I could release provinces to get +karma and due to AE/OE I couldn't take many provinces from enemy anyway. However later it became obvious to me that there are serveral issues:
1) KARMA HIT FROM TAKING PROVINCES IN PEACE DEALS DOESN'T SCALE, UNLIKE EVERY OTHER 'expasion containment' method. Think about it: all mechanics devoted to limiting expansion are Agressive Expansion, Overextension, warscore, casus belli, coring costs, and separatism/rebels. With Administrative and Development Efficiency, first three of these limits fall by 50% (60% in 1.13). Fourth mechanic, casus belli, as a problem gets annihilated with tech 22 imperialism/nationalism. Coring costs, unrest and separatism can be all manipulated with various discounts and bonuses.
Karma has a fixed number of "-8 karma per every province you take in a peace deal".
2) All 'expansion containment mechanics' mentioned before scale also with development of a province while Karma does not: you get -8 karma for 30 development and -8 for 3 development.
Final result is complete absurd. All late game religions - even pagans like animists who are supposed to be weak - can take 12 or even more provinces per peace deal and do that, meanwhile when buddhists try to do that they immediately jump onto -100 karma and get gigantic -10% discipline penalty.
It goes worse because every war declaration gives you -25 karma on top of that! Let's do math: even if you are +50, which is highest possible (and you don't get a bonus by this point) you can take only 9 provinces without getting horrible penalty. At +25, max optimal value, you can take only 6 provinces to not get penalty; if you want to retain bonuses you can take at most THREE provinces.
3) You can always and instantly increase karma with declaration of war on anyone (-10) while there is no way to get positive karma outside of either peace deals after wars (when you need +karma) or counterproductive ceding provinces to previous owners; it is always easier to get negative than positive karma.
4) You always get -25 war declaration karma penalty even if you plan not to take anything for yourself but only release stuff to get positive karma so in such liberation war if you liberate 3 provinces you still didn't get any positive karma but only repaid war_declaration_hit
[update: -10 with next patch but still painful]
5) You get negative karma even for taking your CORES in a peace deal which is really stupid - okay, you are a bad guy if you take land by force, but are you evil if you retake YOUR traditional justified land?
6) ...isn't that weird that Buddhism is the only religion in a game which has negative aspect to it - and on top of that said aspect is so very brutal? Seriously, no other religion has penalties hitting or restricting you with the exception of Precolombian Religious Reforms which are periodical problems anyway. I would accept that unique brutal character of Buddhism if it was actual karma 'balance', not 'try not to fall into negative all game'
-------------------------------------------------------------
PROPOSED SOLUTIONS: pick your favourite
1) Most primitive: decrease per-province karma hit from 8 to 6 to make more room for breathing. In the same time make cores regained in peace deals cost 0 negative karma drop. Alternatively, make karma drop per province discount if you have a claim on it (6 from 8) or religious casus belli (6 from 8). Explanation: if karma is seen in the world as the morality of your actions, taking a province which 'may be yours' (claims) is less evil than straightforward grab; also, spreading buddhism is morally good from buddhist perspective (religious).
2) A bit less primitive: remove -25 war declaration hit for some particular 'justifiable' casus bellis such as Disloyal Vassal, Diplomatic Insult, Dishonored Call, Subjugation, Imperialism/Nationalism, Coalition, Support Rebels
3) Decrease negative karma penalties - why exactly is it -10% discipline instead of more reasonable -5%? Not only between -50 and -25 you lose diplo reputation and discipline bonuses but you also get giant penalty - that's three provinces' difference and -15 discipline drop! I don't even think AI handles that well.
4) Probably the best one.
PROVIDE MORE WAYS TO GAIN POSITIVE KARMA, so there is not only 'negative' but also 'positive karma risk' you have to avoid (the result is working-as-intended-balance)
*royal marriages: +5 karma for each one (as breaking them costs stability this is not exploitable)
*being at peace: +3(???) karma per year
*stability: each point of positive stability brings +1/2/3 karma points per year
*having vassals: +1 karma point per year per vassal
*conversion: +3 karma points gained per province converted to buddhist religion.
Justification from 'realistic' perspective:
*negative karma is seen as being too agressive (wars), positive as being too soft (releasing provinces, honoring calls etc)
*royal marriages, peace, stability are signs of prosperity and caring about people so they increase karma
*conversion increases karma because, well, you teach pagan people how to achieve enlightenment and happiness and you spend money and effort for that - isn't that moral from buddhist perspective?
*having vassals would be cool reference to Mandala: South East Asial political doctrine of empires consisting of one big political centre and swarm of vassals around it. Hey, you could kill them all but you're polite.
RESULT:
Due to semi-passive positive karma gain, there is actually something balancing negative karma from waging wars and expanding.
So, let's paste a post I did some time ago while analyzing Karma...
HOW KARMA SYSTEM WORKS IN THEORY:
The meter is between two extremes, -100 and +100, with 0 in the middle. Unlike Piety or Patriarch Influence, in this system your goal is not to go full throttle to one extreme but to remain balanced. Between -25 and +25 karma points you get very nice bonuses of +5% discipline and +1 diplomatic reputation. These are among the best, or the best, military and diplomatic modifiers and no other religion has them (except interchangeable 2 of 6 Hindu deities, but taking both bonuses at once is impossible). Between -50 to -25 and +25 to +50 points you get no bonuses. Lower than -50 you get horrifying -10% discipline penalty while higher than +50 you get -2 diplo reputation. The goal is to remain between -25 or +25.
Karma negative or positive points are gained from events or actions: positive karma is brought by honoring alliances, releasing nations/vassals/provinces, negative karma is brought by war declarations and taking provinces in peace deals.
So, in theory you need to carefully balance karma and everything is fine! Well...
The problem isn't that expanding in buddhism is impossible but rather the weird and clearly unbalanced way karma system works; in my game as Lan Xang I have spent decades sitting on no bonuses or penalties and I had no way of countering them, the gameplay was not 'remain balanced' but very heavily skewed towards negative side. This felt very awkward.
HOW KARMA SYSTEM WORKS IN PRACTICE
Karma meter is fun, events are very interesting and generally the game was cool. In the same time, however, the longer game was going the more I have noticed several serious issues with balance and overall system working not quite as designed.
To put it shortly, current Karma meter is not about 'remain balanced', like Paradox devs designed, but about 'desperately try to not be negative'. I have never got over 30+ karma, not to mention 50. Meanwhile I constantly had to fight bravely to not fall into the pit of -10% discipline horror. It was not balanced at all; if I was going to calculate, I'd say I have spent 2% of gameplay time being over +25 karma and 20-40% of it being under -25, with several long periods of being below -50 or even at -100. Overall I am afraid even 10% of a game lenght was spent under -50.
In the earliest period of a game I had not big problems because I was waging wars and diplomacy and Indochina where I could release provinces to get +karma and due to AE/OE I couldn't take many provinces from enemy anyway. However later it became obvious to me that there are serveral issues:
1) KARMA HIT FROM TAKING PROVINCES IN PEACE DEALS DOESN'T SCALE, UNLIKE EVERY OTHER 'expasion containment' method. Think about it: all mechanics devoted to limiting expansion are Agressive Expansion, Overextension, warscore, casus belli, coring costs, and separatism/rebels. With Administrative and Development Efficiency, first three of these limits fall by 50% (60% in 1.13). Fourth mechanic, casus belli, as a problem gets annihilated with tech 22 imperialism/nationalism. Coring costs, unrest and separatism can be all manipulated with various discounts and bonuses.
Karma has a fixed number of "-8 karma per every province you take in a peace deal".
2) All 'expansion containment mechanics' mentioned before scale also with development of a province while Karma does not: you get -8 karma for 30 development and -8 for 3 development.
Final result is complete absurd. All late game religions - even pagans like animists who are supposed to be weak - can take 12 or even more provinces per peace deal and do that, meanwhile when buddhists try to do that they immediately jump onto -100 karma and get gigantic -10% discipline penalty.
It goes worse because every war declaration gives you -25 karma on top of that! Let's do math: even if you are +50, which is highest possible (and you don't get a bonus by this point) you can take only 9 provinces without getting horrible penalty. At +25, max optimal value, you can take only 6 provinces to not get penalty; if you want to retain bonuses you can take at most THREE provinces.
3) You can always and instantly increase karma with declaration of war on anyone (-10) while there is no way to get positive karma outside of either peace deals after wars (when you need +karma) or counterproductive ceding provinces to previous owners; it is always easier to get negative than positive karma.
4) You always get -25 war declaration karma penalty even if you plan not to take anything for yourself but only release stuff to get positive karma so in such liberation war if you liberate 3 provinces you still didn't get any positive karma but only repaid war_declaration_hit
[update: -10 with next patch but still painful]
5) You get negative karma even for taking your CORES in a peace deal which is really stupid - okay, you are a bad guy if you take land by force, but are you evil if you retake YOUR traditional justified land?
6) ...isn't that weird that Buddhism is the only religion in a game which has negative aspect to it - and on top of that said aspect is so very brutal? Seriously, no other religion has penalties hitting or restricting you with the exception of Precolombian Religious Reforms which are periodical problems anyway. I would accept that unique brutal character of Buddhism if it was actual karma 'balance', not 'try not to fall into negative all game'
-------------------------------------------------------------
PROPOSED SOLUTIONS: pick your favourite
1) Most primitive: decrease per-province karma hit from 8 to 6 to make more room for breathing. In the same time make cores regained in peace deals cost 0 negative karma drop. Alternatively, make karma drop per province discount if you have a claim on it (6 from 8) or religious casus belli (6 from 8). Explanation: if karma is seen in the world as the morality of your actions, taking a province which 'may be yours' (claims) is less evil than straightforward grab; also, spreading buddhism is morally good from buddhist perspective (religious).
2) A bit less primitive: remove -25 war declaration hit for some particular 'justifiable' casus bellis such as Disloyal Vassal, Diplomatic Insult, Dishonored Call, Subjugation, Imperialism/Nationalism, Coalition, Support Rebels
3) Decrease negative karma penalties - why exactly is it -10% discipline instead of more reasonable -5%? Not only between -50 and -25 you lose diplo reputation and discipline bonuses but you also get giant penalty - that's three provinces' difference and -15 discipline drop! I don't even think AI handles that well.
4) Probably the best one.
PROVIDE MORE WAYS TO GAIN POSITIVE KARMA, so there is not only 'negative' but also 'positive karma risk' you have to avoid (the result is working-as-intended-balance)
*royal marriages: +5 karma for each one (as breaking them costs stability this is not exploitable)
*being at peace: +3(???) karma per year
*stability: each point of positive stability brings +1/2/3 karma points per year
*having vassals: +1 karma point per year per vassal
*conversion: +3 karma points gained per province converted to buddhist religion.
Justification from 'realistic' perspective:
*negative karma is seen as being too agressive (wars), positive as being too soft (releasing provinces, honoring calls etc)
*royal marriages, peace, stability are signs of prosperity and caring about people so they increase karma
*conversion increases karma because, well, you teach pagan people how to achieve enlightenment and happiness and you spend money and effort for that - isn't that moral from buddhist perspective?
*having vassals would be cool reference to Mandala: South East Asial political doctrine of empires consisting of one big political centre and swarm of vassals around it. Hey, you could kill them all but you're polite.
RESULT:
Due to semi-passive positive karma gain, there is actually something balancing negative karma from waging wars and expanding.
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