Buff Catholicism, Please

[Republic of Mercury]

Not to mention Republic cultural acceptance encourages them to take Humanist, which further synergizes with Reformed's Heretic Tolerance.

Wouldn't the cultural acceptance encourage them to not take humanist? Less penalty from unaccepted cultures means that you don't need to worry about accepting them as much.

 

[Politic Revolutionnaire]

Catholism is nice for PU ability other than that if you can gaurentee curia then your great

 

[Chieron]

Catholism is nice for PU ability other than that if you can gaurentee curia then your great

You can not really guarantee the curia. But it's nice just for the normal bonuses, too. Well, if you get enough cardinals. For a minor power or a non-European it is much less useful.

 

[grommile]

You can not really guarantee the curia.

Well. You can - it's just that you have to conquer all the Catholics in Europe to do it, at which point you have won the game.

 

[BrokenSky]

Well. You can - it's just that you have to conquer all the Catholics in Europe to do it, at which point you have won the game.

Papacy still gets 50% doesn't it?

 

[Republic of Mercury]

Papacy still gets 50% doesn't it?

Not if the Papal State doesn't exist.

 

[BrokenSky]

Not if the Papal State doesn't exist.

And suffer the penalties for holding rome as catholic

But yeah if you're doing that you have to factor that, plus the fact that you'll be at a -ve base relations with everyone for heretic/heathen by definition.

Edit: Also I often play custom mode. The flip side of the papacy being held by a 0-province artifact country is it can't be destroyed and always has the 50% pope answers to god alone chance.

It's actually Lose - Lose

 

[grommile]

And suffer the penalties for holding rome as catholic

Or jump through the necessary hoops at some point to form Italy, which is immune to those penalties (and also has quite good NIs for Being A Blob with).

 

[Ixal]

Or jump through the necessary hoops

That pretty much sums up the whole problem. With Catholicism you have to jump through a lot of hoops to get something which might be useful to you and which is maybe slightly better than what Protestants get without hassle and tailor made for them.

 

[Republic of Mercury]

And suffer the penalties for holding rome as catholic

Or give Rome to a non-Catholic nation.

 

[Ixal]

Or give Rome to a non-Catholic nation.

Meanwhile as a Protestant you get an additional missionary for holding Rome...

 

[Manchester.bw]

I think Catholicism is quite good. True, you don't get any morale or discipline bonuses, but you arguably get the same monarch points as Protestant through the -inflation and +stab actions. You really need to go for a lot of cardinals, though, or devoutness, or be a nation that has +Papal influence, to get the most out of it.

IMO, Reformed is the most questionable of the Christian denominations right now, at least for me. When I go Reformed I tend to end up with the fewest monarch points, as I have to spend admin to get to +3 stab to keep one of the powers active all the time. Personally, I just find Reformed annoying, with the save-and-activate style, I would rather just keep something active all the time.

Here is how I would change Catholicism, though, to answer the OP:

All it really needs is a change to the decision "Embrace the Counter-Reformation."

• +3% missionary strength vs heretics
• +0.5 Papal influence per year
• +2 missionaries
• +5% technology cost
• +5% idea cost

I would get rid of the 2 missionaries, the idea and tech penalty, and add +2.5% land morale. Then you make another of those "only good decisions" everyone gets. The morale will make Catholic good for countries without additional +Papal Influence. This decision would also give everyone an extra +.5 influence to everyone post-1500, and make the religion extremely good for countries with devoutness or national +influence.

 

[Grand Historian]

Wouldn't the cultural acceptance encourage them to not take humanist? Less penalty from unaccepted cultures means that you don't need to worry about accepting them as much.

It stacks better with the Humanist bonus'. Not to mention that it would save you Dip points on converting cultures to small to accept, even with Humanism.

I think Catholicism is quite good. True, you don't get any morale or discipline bonuses, but you arguably get the same monarch points as Protestant through the -inflation and +stab actions. You really need to go for a lot of cardinals, though, or devoutness, or be a nation that has +Papal influence, to get the most out of it.

IMO, Reformed is the most questionable of the Christian denominations right now, at least for me. When I go Reformed I tend to end up with the fewest monarch points, as I have to spend admin to get to +3 stab to keep one of the powers active all the time. Personally, I just find Reformed annoying, with the save-and-activate style, I would rather just keep something active all the time.

Here is how I would change Catholicism, though, to answer the OP:

All it really needs is a change to the decision "Embrace the Counter-Reformation."

• +3% missionary strength vs heretics
• +0.5 Papal influence per year
• +2 missionaries
• +5% technology cost
• +5% idea cost

I would get rid of the 2 missionaries, the idea and tech penalty, and add +2.5% land morale. Then you make another of those "only good decisions" everyone gets. The morale will make Catholic good for countries without additional +Papal Influence. This decision would also give everyone an extra +.5 influence to everyone post-1500, and make the religion extremely good for countries with devoutness or national +influence.

+2.5 Land Morale would make no sense for Counter Reformation, and getting rid of the +2 Missionaries would be a massive blow to it; both in Europe and outside (it's incredibly difficult to get Jerusalem/Mecca as Japan or Kongo, and you'll already have your hands full with the Reformation spreading like the plague as any European, and thus would greatly slow down conversion and PI gain).

The whole point of Reformed is to use it as the situation demands (and if you're actively using it all the time and want to actively use it all the time then you're Reformed for the wrong reason), and I'm pretty sure that Catholicism is the same with the 'save-and-activate style, except you actually have to hit a certain threshold before you can activate.

And how is Reformed for questionable than Coptic?

 

[Politic Revolutionnaire]

It's useful to conquer every Catholic except the pope who gets their influence based on the number of cardinals in the game of which there will only be 7 all of which would belong to you. Meaning you can consistently outspent the pope. It's useful to have permanent curiam when going for world conquests a European country but yeahtheonly tiny issue is killing all of Catholic Europe

 

[Manchester.bw]

It stacks better with the Humanist bonus'. Not to mention that it would save you Dip points on converting cultures to small to accept, even with Humanism.



+2.5 Land Morale would make no sense for Counter Reformation, and getting rid of the +2 Missionaries would be a massive blow to it; both in Europe and outside (it's incredibly difficult to get Jerusalem/Mecca as Japan or Kongo, and you'll already have your hands full with the Reformation spreading like the plague as any European, and thus would greatly slow down conversion and PI gain).

The whole point of Reformed is to use it as the situation demands (and if you're actively using it all the time and want to actively use it all the time then you're Reformed for the wrong reason), and I'm pretty sure that Catholicism is the same with the 'save-and-activate style, except you actually have to hit a certain threshold before you can activate.

And how is Reformed for questionable than Coptic?

I never pick Counter-Reform because I hate the +costs of it, so it was just my victim for a change. The missionary thing also isn't really my point, so if they're important for others they should probably be let be.

My suggestion is to give all the Catholics like 2.5% morale/+.5 Papal influence around 1500 as a freebie, and then the religion should be on par-ish with Protestant at that point.

 

[BrokenSky]

I would like to post a link to a suggestion I made wrt Protestantism here, since it seems relevant:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rotestantism-make-church-power-matter.888365/

 

[Grand Historian]

I never pick Counter-Reform because I hate the +costs of it, so it was just my victim for a change. The missionary thing also isn't really my point, so if they're important for others they should probably be let be.

My suggestion is to give all the Catholics like 2.5% morale/+.5 Papal influence around 1500 as a freebie, and then the religion should be on par-ish with Protestant at that point.

Oh no, I actually quite agree with you on skinning the +5% Tech/Idea, I just don't really understand how +2.5% Morale would be fitting for it (not to mention it's a pretty small number; Protestant can still double it and add on Discipline). +0.5 Papal Influence would actually be quite good for it.

I would like to post a link to a suggestion I made wrt Protestantism here, since it seems relevant:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/protestantism-make-church-power-matter.888365/

Thank you.

 

[saegoto]

my two pence:

CATHOLIC:
- increace base gain of papal influence from 0,5 to 1
- add new Papal Influence source: number of catholic states when reformation starts. for instance if there are 94 catholic countries, it would give 0,94 PI yearly to every catholic state
- change chance of being papal controller by papal state. the more catholic countries, the less chance that the papal state will be curia controller
- change counterreformation +5% tech cost penalty to bonus -5% and add -1 or -2 heretic tolerance penalty
- add insta benefit from curia actions: 15% tax also adds +50 gold, +1 yearly legitimicy also adds +5 yearly legitimicy (it should give rep tradition to republics and devotion to theocracies), +1 prestige also addes +5 prestige, -0,1 yearly inflation also adds -1 inflation, +15% manpower recovery speed also addes 5k manpower (remove is at war condition)

PROTESTANT:
- add events eresing Active Aspect of the Church when it is active too long
- add more penalties of gaining church power, e.g. -5% if there are less than 3 reformation centers, -5% papal state exists, -5% does not belong to protestant league, -10% when catholic league won, -5% emperor is catholic, -5% being in an alliance with a catholic state

REFORMED:
- give back +15% morale bonus

 

[Grand Historian]

my two pence:

CATHOLIC:
- increace base gain of papal influence from 0,5 to 1
- add new Papal Influence source: number of catholic states when reformation starts. for instance if there are 94 catholic countries, it would give 0,94 PI yearly to every catholic state
- change chance of being papal controller by papal state. the more catholic countries, the less chance that the papal state will be curia controller
- change counterreformation +5% tech cost penalty to bonus -5% and add -1 or -2 heretic tolerance penalty
- add insta benefit from curia actions: 15% tax also adds +50 gold, +1 yearly legitimicy also adds +5 yearly legitimicy (it should give rep tradition to republics and devotion to theocracies), +1 prestige also addes +5 prestige, -0,1 yearly inflation also adds -1 inflation, +15% manpower recovery speed also addes 5k manpower (remove is at war condition)

PROTESTANT:
- add events eresing Active Aspect of the Church when it is active too long
- add more penalties of gaining church power, e.g. -5% if there are less than 3 reformation centers, -5% papal state exists, -5% does not belong to protestant league, -10% when catholic league won, -5% emperor is catholic, -5% being in an alliance with a catholic state

REFORMED:
- give back +15% morale bonus

I like your ideas for the Counterreformation (and maybe tone down Heretic Conversion strength a bit to balance it out because the Reformation won't spread as fast). I'm not the biggest fan of giving insta-benefits from Curia Actions, but I do think +1 Legitimacy should also give Devotion/Republican Tradition.

+15% Morale for Reformed would be good, and I do like the idea of a politically weaker Reformation having a negative effect on Church Power.

 

[Atlantians]

The whole Galileo affair was the result of clashing egos and Galileo refusing to acknowledge that the Copernican system was only a still theory that could not be proven (which it could not because the instruments required were not yet invented), and the Church not wanting him claiming something was true since it could not be proven (and they did not want to endorse scientific theories that could not be proven as being accurate per the means of the time). Still, quite agree with the HRE.

Also, the Pope supported Galileo.

Galileo returned the favour by mocking the Papacy in his public writings.

Both Copernicus and Galileo were very disagreeable people and made enemies that were unnecessary.

I just have three words for you guys
Index librorum prohibitorum
There is no way you can convince me that the catholic church somehow helped science advance.
Religion in all it's forms have hampered technological advances for fear of undermining the faith.

What is ironic here is that your anti-religion view is hampering your ability to understand and communicate accurate history.