Brutal Honesty from a game developer, this is whats wrong with stellaris.

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Kinkness

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Mar 21, 2010
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I've been in the game developing scene for 6 years now. I've studied game design, and I've studied failed, and successful games and why they are that way. I know what it takes to develop a game, and I know how difficult it can be to balance.

This is honestly a suggestion, and friendly heads up to Paradox. (Most of which I'm sure they already know, but a reminder, or at least just in case.. friendly suggestions). Though I am going to be brutally honest despite, because honesty is how you move forward.

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Having played Stellaris since it first came out, and seeing all the iterations, 2 things have been a constant, which has not only killed the enjoyment for so many people I see on the forums, but also my own.

1) Bland boring mid/late game.

2) Horrendously stupid AI.

Unfortunately, these two things are a staple foundation to a game that expects to be a "Great" game. or a game that you want people to continue to enjoy for years and years after their purchase.

The AI is the only thing the player has to play with. The more limited and basic an AI is, the less "replay ability" the game gets, and in many cases is an axe in the log of fun, chopping away at it as you go on.

A good game has to also have a longevity to its game-play, and balance from start to finish -In Some Way-. This is a HUGE problem for most games, I'm not going to lie. Even some of the best games out there like Witcher 3 have this problem, where half way through the game everything becomes rather repetitive and you're well over leveled or over geared with more money than the Rockefellers to throw around..

The difference between that game and this one in terms of replay ability, and longevity keeping the players in the game is the story, atmosphere, and immersion is so high up there, it counters the less than perfect balance everywhere else by a long shot.

Stellaris does NOT have this. Once you hit that mid game, there is nothing engaging for the player anymore than to mindlessly start wars and take over the galaxy in one boring war after another. A GALAXY that after the first 30 minutes becomes entirely explored, and nothing to engage in anymore (Though the last expansion did help this with randomly generated exploration stories, which I have to say is really great).

I have many times in the past gave suggestions for everything, so please excuse me if I take the liberty to do the same here at certain points.

It cannot be stressed enough however, that for Stellaris to truly dig itself out of the rut it's been in for the last 4 years several things must be done on the development side:

1: every new mechanic must have a plan to make it survive and be engaging from turn 1 to end of the game.

2: Every mechanic should play and hook into every other mechanic in some way.

Both of these are not done, it's a series of stand alone 1 off mechanics trying to create a big grand strategy game without ever tieing into each other directly.. It simply won't cut it.

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To give an example, and one of the most notable complaints, is simply the exploration. Right now exploring is a press to scan stand alone mechanic with no depth, meet another AI you instantly get to see their entire border; another stand alone mechanic, then engage in yet another stand alone mechanic of diplomacy. There is no push or pull, or engaging mechanics beyond this, and those mechanics in no way "speak" or interact with each other or the player beyond their most basic functions.

This however, can be fixed relatively easily, (though it would take awhile to restructure).

Now what if exploring and scanning had tiers? As the ages and technology expand you gain access to new scanning technology allowing you to scan deeper into a planets crust, and then even core? A tier of 3-4 even stretching from early game to end game, allowing science ships to scan and re scan your entire systems through the entire game? You can expand on this by way of adding tiers and "higher grade" rare resources the deeper you scan. These don't become available, or even shown until you scan them at that depth/tier.

Now Imagine you meet another race, their borders don't automatically show you where they are unless you sign an agreement to do so. This mechanic plays into the ethics, and goverment types. Governments and ethics that are going to close their border to you aren't going to tell you squat about them. This allows for "Gaps" of unknown space to occur to the player, lending exploration a longevity and reason. This also can have tiers as you move up in reputation and opinion. Going from "Border information", to "Intelligence INformation" such as what type of ores/resources are on their systems, etc.

Now fast forward 400 years, you've established a somewhat friendly but rocky relationship with this said empire, only to find that they hold mass quantities of tier 3 high grade resource you desperately need as your science ships begin scanning tier 3 level on their planets. Or perhaps you engaged in a trade with them and realized "wait a minute.. they have access to tier 3 high grade <resource>". Now you're scanning their planets in an effort to find where in their borders they are gaining this resource to decide if perhaps, it would be better to simply break this unstable friendship or not..

This example could continue going on and on, as every mechanic and system in the game would be tied together and pushing and pulling, but with just these changes suddenly you have technology, diplomacy, ethics, government types, and constant engagement with the player from start to finish of the game pushing and pulling on each other and the player.

Imagine the landscape of Stellaris constantly changing as you and the AI are scanning deeper and finding new resources and valuable compounds throughout the galaxy. Diplomacy is extremely stagnant in Stellaris and this would inject much life and engagement into that aspect as well, as friends, even alliances slowly turn on each other as the fields and resources shift and the balance of power shifts from these.

Of course the AI would have to be able to reason all of this, which is why a major focus on the AI would be important, but necessary regardless.

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In the future, when you begin looking at the Diplomacy, Alliances, etc. which I'm sure you guys are as that's the last real thing that hasn't been touched since the release of Stellaris, focusing on how to make Diplomacy engaging from start to finish is a neceessity. Reasons for friendships, alliances to break, and ways to stop it, as well as reasons for two shaky friendships to come closer and grow stronger. It's no simple task, especially if you dont have other engaging mechanics surrounding diplomacy, which is why I urge, and highly suggest you guys look at how to tie in, and engage as many mechanics as possible into every system like my example above. It doesn't need to be convoluted or overly difficult either, as my example isn't, but it adds huge breaths of air into otherwise rather dead and boring mechanics by themselves.

You have the pieces of a game to stand the test of time here.. A jigsaw puzzle of a great piece of art, it's just a matter of putting them together in the right order.
 
People don't get over 1k ingame hours in boring games. :) And midgame Witcher is boring, so Stellaris must not be. Mm, ok. :)
 
Dig sites were supposed to fix that. So maybe work more on those.

Also I never played a 4X game without pacing problems. I do recall that even in Master of Orion 2, you eventually just spam ships and put planets on auto-build.
 
More content is always welcome. For people who know everything in the game already. What developers actually take into account is the amount of people who actually see all that content on average. If 90% of players who've bought the game play 200 hours and quit, I am pretty sure it is not due to the lack of content. :)
 
I do think the game needs more challenges. Because of this I play with Starnet Ai to keep the galaxy interesting. But I have also had people tell me "We don't want to turn Stellaris into Dark Souls", whatever that is supposed to mean. I myself love a challenge but I guess if the devs simply made the game harder many casual players would rage and stop playing?
 
what the game needs is: more things to do inside your empire, and more game play that doesn't revolve around war.
I mean look at it, early game what do we do? We explore. why? So we can find good colonies. why? so we can build up our economy. why? so we can win wars. why? so we can expand our territory. why? so we can build up our economy...

The only success metric in game is military strength, the only application of it the only way to leave a mark on the galaxy, is to conquer.
 
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. Once you hit that mid game, there is nothing engaging for the player anymore than to mindlessly start wars and take over the galaxy in one boring war after another.
As far as I can see, you don't own many of the DLCs. While it is a low tactics, some DLCs offer specific prescripted challenges to midgame and the game has prescripted endgame crisises.
==
The more limited and basic an AI is, the less "replay ability" the game gets, and in many cases is an axe in the log of fun, chopping away at it as you go on.
Wrong. Replayability is dictated by unique challenges, good AI is not needed. HoMM3 have incredible replayability on randomly generated maps, but the AI is still tremendously stupid.

Also, game AI designers must keep in mind that some tips and tricks easy for AI are completely impossible to follow by human player. Optimal AI strategies are completely inhuman as they rely on perfect multitasking, timing and attention.

For example, devs said that it was fairly easy to make perfect raiding AI for pre-2.0 (before hyperlanes only), which would cripple early game economy. The problem? Human players would HATE fighting against it, because they would need to jiggle tens of fleets and constantly pay attention to them.

Another example would be micro by SC1 & SC2 bots. Look for analysis of Deep Mind's Alpha Star games.

=======

All-in-all I would say that Stellaris has great potential for single player replayability with current AI if the devs would pay attention to the map generator, so it created good map. See history of HoMM3.
 
Dig sites were supposed to fix that. So maybe work more on those.
I just suppose that dig sites should be being found from time to time in explored territories. Or, let's say, in explored with lvl 1 exploration techs. Through the game we get better sensors, better research scaners, so we definitely should be able to re-scan all, we already have.
 
Indeed, there isn't.
 
As far as I can see, you don't own many of the DLCs. While it is a low tactics, some DLCs offer specific prescripted challenges to midgame and the game has prescripted endgame crisises.
==

Wrong. Replayability is dictated by unique challenges, good AI is not needed. HoMM3 have incredible replayability on randomly generated maps, but the AI is still tremendously stupid.

Also, game AI designers must keep in mind that some tips and tricks easy for AI are completely impossible to follow by human player. Optimal AI strategies are completely inhuman as they rely on perfect multitasking, timing and attention.

For example, devs said that it was fairly easy to make perfect raiding AI for pre-2.0 (before hyperlanes only), which would cripple early game economy. The problem? Human players would HATE fighting against it, because they would need to jiggle tens of fleets and constantly pay attention to them.

Another example would be micro by SC1 & SC2 bots. Look for analysis of Deep Mind's Alpha Star games.

=======

All-in-all I would say that Stellaris has great potential for single player replayability with current AI if the devs would pay attention to the map generator, so it created good map. See history of HoMM3.

I have all the dlcs.

Replayability depends on what game you're playing and the type of game it is. HoMM3 also had deeper mechanics which allowed for that replayability to shine through, so that point is mute.

You're absolutely right about the AI designing. Something which I have personal experience with. That however, is a statement, not a point directed at anything which I discussed. Unless you're trying to say that it's somehow impossible to make an interseting AI in a 4x game. Which I have to say is ludicrous at the most basic level, we wouldn't have games with AI if that was the case. We'd still be playing Pong, because why try to make something better if you've already deemed it impossible right?

The problems with stellaris go WAAAAY beyond "map generation"... That is a silly level of shallow thought. No offense, as it ignores literally every complaint being spammed on the forums since release.
 
I'm sorry to come off dismissive and insulting, but your "advice" comes off as patronizing and is in no way illuminating or unique. It doesn't take 6 years of development experience to note that the ai is bad and the mid game can be stale and boring. The ideas you describe for diplomacy do seem interesting, but I've seen versions of those ideas described before. Tierd anomalys is also an interesting potential solution, but would still be limited without additional changes not described. Also, why bother mentioning the ai if your suggestion boils down to "make ai better"?

Funny thing is, I generally agree that the suggested changes could be good for the game, and the problems you identified are real. However, your post is both vague and yet hyper specific in places, is condescending, and offers nothing new to the discussion. Also, comparing this game to the witcher is about as useful as comparing baseball to tennis. People enjoy those games for very different reasons, and I would say the same for gsg/4x and a 3rd person rpg.
 
I've been in the game developing scene for 6 years now. I've studied game design, and I've studied failed, and successful games and why they are that way. I know what it takes to develop a game
I notice the conspicuous absence of you actually saying "I have have devolped/worked on games" if you have great please let me know, but if not well frankly I find it hard to put stock in anything you say, espiaclly when you declare you know exacly how to make a game.
 
I have all the dlcs.
The icons under your avatar disagree for some reason.

HoMM3 also had deeper mechanics which allowed for that replayability to shine through
Not really. In terms of mechanics it is a fairly trivial game, much simpler than Stellaris. So you dismissal looks strange.

That however, is a statement, not a point directed at anything which I discussed. Unless you're trying to say that it's somehow impossible to make an interseting AI in a 4x game.
TBH, I find 4x games boring. I do not play Stellaris as a competitive 4x game, but as a puzzle. I see quite a bit of ways to build interesting campaigns within Stellaris with completely brain dead AI.

The problems with stellaris go WAAAAY beyond "map generation"... That is a silly level of shallow thought.
Indeed it is. The point of a good map generator would be to generate a map that is interesting to play within existing framework. This requires quite complex design decisions for requirement to layout of the map and positioning objects on it.
 
I have all the dlcs.
The icons under your avatar disagree for some reason.
"Owned items" will stop to be displayed at 54 ones, so that it's pretty possible, that a 54-one-guy-girl (like "Kinkness") has actually all the Stellaris-DLCs you just don't see ...

TBH, I find 4x games boring. I do not play Stellaris as a competitive 4x game, but as a puzzle. I see quite a bit of ways to build interesting campaigns within Stellaris with completely brain dead AI.
A bit suspicious: Stellaris is a 4x-game, but you still own it. Stellaris is also a single-player-game, but you don't care for its AI. And what you mean with "puzzle" is pretty mysterious for me.
 
what the game needs is: more things to do inside your empire, and more game play that doesn't revolve around war.
I mean look at it, early game what do we do? We explore. why? So we can find good colonies. why? so we can build up our economy. why? so we can win wars. why? so we can expand our territory. why? so we can build up our economy...

The only success metric in game is military strength, the only application of it the only way to leave a mark on the galaxy, is to conquer.

I disagree. I build up my economy to make megastructures, which I use to build up my economy to make gigastructures, which I use to build up my economy to create Nicol-Dyson beams to let all the other plebs know I’m that much better than them. But then I’ve always played Stellaris with an eye towards domestic affairs rather than looking outward.
 
"Owned items" will stop to be displayed at 54 ones, so that it's pretty possible, that a 54-one-guy-girl (like "Kinkness") has actually all the Stellaris-DLCs you just don't see ...
Also they can thankfully be inactivated.
If my settings are not broke (happens from time to time) I should have much less icons then I really own. To make the forum more readable you know...