Broken Naval Exploit by Cheesy AI

[Outcast_BR]

Once again I come to report that the AI, mainly the UK, keeps its ship parked at port in Seek and Destroy mission, with no assigned patrols, in vast areas beyond their fleet's mission coverage, and still achieve naval dominance.

In the image 0/4 means that there are four fleets assigned to that mission, but ZERO are actually doing it, either due to repairs or being OUT OF RANGE.

Basically, as I have reported before, the AI keeps its ships in port, keeping them safe, wasting no fuel, controlling zones beyond their range, and still has Naval Supremacy.

Please fix this.

 

[Gyrvendal]

Funily enough this is actually kind of realistic. It's called "Fleet-in-being' doctrine. That said this will do nothing to protect their convoys so you can punish them super hard for doing that.

 

[Findell_HOI]

Thats not an exploit thats how strike force works.

 

[Outcast_BR]

Thats not an exploit thats how strike force works.

Did you read the post? There are no fleets in range to cover those regions, yet they are still maintaining dominance... If they were in range, okay.

 

[Findell_HOI]

Did you read the post? There are no fleets in range to cover those regions, yet they are still maintaining dominance... If they were in range, okay.

I very much doubt that and unless you post a save file there is no way to confirm that.

 

[Outcast_BR]

I took the save from Bitt3rSteel. Now I'm beyond that point of the screenshot on my own save, but I saw that the UK was doing exactly as I described. Not anymore, as I'm winning and their ships are trapped in the Mediterranean without ports. You may try the save. Play for a while and see how the UK behaves.

Stupid Italy.hoi4

drive.google.com

 

[Dimmie_Dumm]

The sheer persistence with which threads on various sides of "naval supremacy" pop up should imo give devs a clear hint that this mechanics is less than ideal in perception of the players. @PDXKatten do community managers keep track of the most regularly coming complaints? I'd bet this one is rated quite high.

 

[Outcast_BR]

I don't think the current system is bad. But could use some tweaking. Like, how can you keep your strike force in the Mediterranean and exert naval supremacy around the British isles? Another thing, Fleet-In-Being, it's fine to keep your big guns parked, but in order to valid supremacy you must have some ships actually patrolling the area. Either on patrol or convoy escort. Just having my stack of 150 ships in port shouldn't give me supremacy if I have no way to pinpoint an enemy fleet nearby.

 

[Lean_XD]

Funily enough this is actually kind of realistic. It's called "Fleet-in-being' doctrine. That said this will do nothing to protect their convoys so you can punish them super hard for doing that.

Yes and no. Fleet in being doctrine was "formalized" for the High Seas fleet by the German Admiral Alfred von Tirpitz. Doctrine is focused on deterring an enemy by being 2/3 in size of the largest navy. This meant that even if the UK won the 1v1 war against Germany they would be left licking their wounds and the next or the next two navies could overpower the Royal Navy in the event of a new war.

Once again I come to report that the AI, mainly the UK, keeps its ship parked at port in Seek and Destroy mission, with no assigned patrols, in vast areas beyond their fleet's mission coverage, and still achieve naval dominance.

In the image 0/4 means that there are four fleets assigned to that mission, but ZERO are actually doing it, either due to repairs or being OUT OF RANGE.

Basically, as I have reported before, the AI keeps its ships in port, keeping them safe, wasting no fuel, controlling zones beyond their range, and still has Naval Supremacy.

Please fix this.

In the case of the game, This is the first time I've encountered something like this, It's also the first time I've seen RN have 25 Battleships in 1945. Do you play any mod
That might have caused Missions to bug.

 

[Outcast_BR]

Yes and no. Fleet in being doctrine was "formalized" for the High Seas fleet by the German Admiral Alfred von Tirpitz. Doctrine is focused on deterring an enemy by being 2/3 in size of the largest navy. This meant that even if the UK won the 1v1 war against Germany they would be left licking their wounds and the next or the next two navies could overpower the Royal Navy in the event of a new war.



In the case of the game, This is the first time I've encountered something like this, It's also the first time I've seen RN have 25 Battleships in 1945. Do you play any mod
That might have caused Missions to bug.

That save isn't mine. I took it after watching the video. Someone else sent it to Bitt3rSteel. I don't think mods were used, the save didn't ask for it when I first loaded it. It's not the first time this happens. The UK will do this every game. Assign ships to regions too far away, but still achieve naval supremacy.

 

[HmJ_JP]

It happened several times to me, as a - dumb - human player. You're just absorbed in the action of the game, some new front opens and you reassign mechanically the sea zones, only to realize after months that no naval combat icon comes up as before because your TF is still in the old location.

There should be a reminder that the TF has to be moved closer to the new assigned sea zones, but that's tricky since there can be many different ports. And if you picked 2 or even more sea zones to cover, because the naval base is close to both, the AI might be even more puzzled.

What we could propose to have is a visual reminder, such as out of range, in case such sea zone isn't reachable in less than, say, 6 hours. But that's for human player.

 

[Outcast_BR]

I miss the early days when the fleet was based in a single port, and you could order it to be based elsewhere. Nowadays you have your fleets at a naval base of max level, it gets damaged, then moves to the closest port for repair, and sometimes that is a level 1 base, so if you are not paying attention, your fleet will spend an eternity repairing. There was also the roleplay flavor to name a fleet according to the base it was attached to. We lost that. I don't know why they keep dumbing down stuff like this same Ford for the obliged air wing size of 10 or 100.

It happened several times to me, as a - dumb - human player. You're just absorbed in the action of the game, some new front opens and you reassign mechanically the sea zones, only to realize after months that no naval combat icon comes up as before because your TF is still in the old location.

There should be a reminder that the TF has to be moved closer to the new assigned sea zones, but that's tricky since there can be many different ports. And if you picked 2 or even more sea zones to cover, because the naval base is close to both, the AI might be even more puzzled.

What we could propose to have is a visual reminder, such as out of range, in case such sea zone isn't reachable in less than, say, 6 hours. But that's for human player.

 

[HmJ_JP]

I miss the early days when the fleet was based in a single port, and you could order it to be based elsewhere. Nowadays you have your fleets at a naval base of max level, it gets damaged, then moves to the closest port for repair, and sometimes that is a level 1 base, so if you are not paying attention, your fleet will spend an eternity repairing. There was also the roleplay flavor to name a fleet according to the base it was attached to. We lost that. I don't know why they keep dumbing down stuff like this same Ford for the obliged air wing size of 10 or 100.

Sorry, maybe I didn't catch you right, but you can always relocate your TF anywhere in the world where you have port access.
What I always do is right click on trash icon to delete all sea zones (make sure I don't dumbly forget one somewhere that will impact the performance), then right click to the new port you want to move. Only after you assign a mission and sea zone(s).

And you can still move your TF even while repairing:

• you'll get a warning message but you can still go ahead
• you can also split your TF so that repairing ships stay there while the others can be moved

 

[Outcast_BR]

Sorry, maybe I didn't catch you right, but you can always relocate your TF anywhere in the world where you have port access.
What I always do is right click on trash icon to delete all sea zones (make sure I don't dumbly forget one somewhere that will impact the performance), then right click to the new port you want to move. Only after you assign a mission and sea zone(s).

And you can still move your TF even while repairing:

• you'll get a warning message but you can still go ahead
• you can also split your TF so that repairing ships stay there while the others can be moved

Thanks for your input man, but I'm well aware of those things. I said that before they changed naval, you would pick a base and that fleet would always return to that same base no matter what. Now I can assign my ships to a base, but if I cancel the ongoing mission it'll go to the nearest port it chooses, but I'd rather it went back to the main place where I'd consider my Navy HQ, say Taranto in Italy for example.

 

[HmJ_JP]

Thanks for your input man, but I'm well aware of those things. I said that before they changed naval, you would pick a base and that fleet would always return to that same base no matter what. Now I can assign my ships to a base, but if I cancel the ongoing mission it'll go to the nearest port it chooses, but I'd rather it went back to the main place where I'd consider my Navy HQ, say Taranto in Italy for example.

Ah ok, I get you now. But on the other hand, especially when you want to save your ships, it makes sense they take the shortest route for repair and avoid annihilation. I didn't test the behavior based on different rules of engagement.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Funily enough this is actually kind of realistic. It's called "Fleet-in-being' doctrine. That said this will do nothing to protect their convoys so you can punish them super hard for doing that.

Thats not an exploit thats how strike force works.

both quotes aren't just wrong, they're absurd.

fleet in being is only functional when the enemy respects it. there is exactly 0 historical basis in any historical period ever (including ww2) for "naval supremacy" for ships that are still in port while their enemy is actively patrolling the water and attacking ships. if that strike force won't sail out, it is not and cannot be exerting "supremacy", period. when the enemy calls the bluff, it's time to put up or shut up, in war terms.

what we observe in the game is the rough equivalent of fake espionage-generated divisions continuing to exist and stopping progress of actual divisions even after they're attacked.

it's also an internal inconsistency. you can make suicidal attacks on land, but you can't naval invade due to supremacy. even this fake supremacy where your ships are the only ones that will actually fight.

 

[Nikolai II]

both quotes aren't just wrong, they're absurd.

fleet in being is only functional when the enemy respects it. there is exactly 0 historical basis in any historical period ever (including ww2) for "naval supremacy" for ships that are still in port while their enemy is actively patrolling the water and attacking ships. if that strike force won't sail out, it is not and cannot be exerting "supremacy", period. when the enemy calls the bluff, it's time to put up or shut up, in war terms.

what we observe in the game is the rough equivalent of fake espionage-generated divisions continuing to exist and stopping progress of actual divisions even after they're attacked.

it's also an internal inconsistency. you can make suicidal attacks on land, but you can't naval invade due to supremacy. even this fake supremacy where your ships are the only ones that will actually fight.

I kind of agree with you, but the Italian navy spent most of the war hiding in port and the UK navy still pretended it was dangerous in the Med?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I kind of agree with you, but the Italian navy spent most of the war hiding in port and the UK navy still pretended it was dangerous in the Med?

"dangerous" yes. completely refusing to naval invade out of fear of it, no. one would not (reasonably) claim italians had supremacy in that situation. or put another way: why was the italian navy still in port when the uk fleet was around? why was the uk fleet not hiding in port there instead?

 

[Outcast_BR]

I'm not an expert on the subject, but I imagine the Royal Navy did commit ships and planes to the Mediterranean, actively searching for the Italians, they didn't just sit at Alexandria and put fear on the Italians because why they could sail out sometime, nope. They were searching to destroy! Not Sitting to Scare...

I think a realistic approach to solve this bad Naval Supremacy mechanic is to actually create a new mission. Strike Force mission remains as is, but ships in Port generate no control on the waters. Now we'd have a new mission "Naval Supremacy", this mission would place your fleet on the sea in battle formation, but standing by or moving rather slowly around the assigned area, preserving fuel, and also making it vulnerable to attack, then it works just as a Strike Force, but a bit faster since the fleet is ready to battle, and with the ships actually in the water now you have Naval Supremacy. So if you somehow scare that fleet away, or it goes to repair, BOOM, Naval Supremacy is gone. Naval invasions may happen, but they will still be subjected to convoy raiding and fast taskforces on patrol. I think this solves everything.

 

[Outcast_BR]

Naval Supremacy mission would be a risky gambit. The game knows the odds of success, that's why we have a way to choose Engagement Rules for fleets. If your fleet is programmed to only engage whe the chance of victory is big, and the odds are against that, then it will go back to Port for as long as the enemy's Naval Supremacy score remains superior. Your ships are priceless, so you concede the superior fleet the control over the region. That is Fleet in being. But you could also risk it all and see what happensa and configure the engagement to proceed maybe you'll be lucky. There is even a spirit available for fleet in being that describes exactly that, a gambit for victory, penalty for retreat, bonus to attack.