British Raj military in 1936 and Raj templates

British Raj military in 1936 and Raj templates

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billcorr

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The purpose of this thread is to provide a venue to discuss the British Raj during World War II and The Raj in HoI4.

Edit:

The purpose of this thread is to provide a venue to discuss the British Raj military during World War II (specifically, 1936) and starting templates for The Raj in HoI4.
 
Last edited:

billcorr

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Anyone know what the unit organization was of Raj divisions in 1936?

At the start of the game (1936 Scenario), The Raj starts with 3 division templates:

upload_2020-1-29_12-57-14.png




But it is actually just 2 division templates, because the Infantry Division and District Garrison appear to be the same templates:

INFANTRY DIVISION:
upload_2020-1-29_12-58-29.png



DISTRICT GARRISON:
upload_2020-1-29_12-59-10.png


If anyone knows of a historic division type used by the Raj, that might be useful to add to the game.
 
Last edited:

Mr_Dimento

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They need to drastically touch up India. Either in a free update or with a DLC (maybe post-war, as India became a major power and industrialized massively then)

India right now is a steaming pile of .... famine.
 

TRoode

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If anyone knows of a historic division type used by the Raj, that might be useful to add to the game.
From the ever reliable Wikipedia: "Infantry divisions consisted of three infantry brigades, of three infantry battalions. Usually, one battalion in each brigade was British and two were Indian or Gurkha. Four brigades were raised consisting entirely of Gurkha battalions. Later in the war, as British infantry reinforcements became more scarce, particularly in the South East Asian Theatre, British battalions in brigades fighting in Burma were replaced by Indian units."
 

kimidf

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They need to drastically touch up India. Either in a free update or with a DLC (maybe post-war, as India became a major power and industrialized massively then)

India right now is a steaming pile of .... famine.
I think a lot of raj tree can maintain its structure although it is true that some branches or approaches would have to be changed to adapt it to new mechanics and add some more approaches or decisions.
I also think there would be another skins to represent the Burmese troops
 

Enriador

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India is also the only tag (among hundreds) that cannot ever create its own faction.

It's embarassing.
 

Meglok

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1936 RAJ templates are abstracted to fit the game. Most units were broken up into smaller garrison units, border guards, and police units. And they were British Indian Army units. Iirc put together they might have made up 10 2 or 3 regiment divisions. Almost always lead by regular British officers attached to the British Indian army and they had almost no support or artillery units except for some engineering units scattered about.

Indian army units suffered from lack of support and training for some time into the war. There are plenty of reports of Indian units that were transferred to East Africa and the Middle East being totally unprepared for battle. The usually remedy was to attach British support and artillery and provide a crash training course.
 

billcorr

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Was the Raj's division structure in 1939 the same as it was in 1936?

From the ever reliable Wikipedia: "Infantry divisions consisted of three infantry brigades, of three infantry battalions. Usually, one battalion in each brigade was British and two were Indian or Gurkha. Four brigades were raised consisting entirely of Gurkha battalions. Later in the war, as British infantry reinforcements became more scarce, particularly in the South East Asian Theatre, British battalions in brigades fighting in Burma were replaced by Indian units."
Congrats on your first post!

Thanks for taking the time to help figure out what the division structure was of The Raj's forces.

The Wikipedia quote was helpful...it led to this:

upload_2020-1-30_5-19-7.png


https://books.google.com/books?id=0V6NCgAAQBAJ&ppis=_e&printsec=frontcover

page 280

These sources seem to describe the Raj's division structure during WW2.

Was the Raj's division structure in 1939 the same as it was in 1936?

The game starts in 1936...I just don't know if in the subsequent 3 years (1936 to 1939), the Raj forces underwent any type of reorganization.
 

billcorr

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"What about the Raj's army structure during its fight in Waziristan from 1936 to 1939?"

Right. That might be a good start.

(Kudos to those of you who are familiar with the Raj's conflict in Waziristan. HoI4 certainly leads one to find out new things...well, new to me. But you all probably were familiar with this war.)

My initial impression is that the Raj army in 1936 was based on a regimental system that was task-organized to conduct operations.

Here's an example of the tailoring of forces during the Waziristan War (war?) from 1936 to 1939:

upload_2020-1-30_5-39-9.png


From The London Gazette "Report on Operations in Waziristan" 2 November 1937
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/34449/supplement/6811
 
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billcorr

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From the ever reliable Wikipedia:
Good point about Wikipedia. Here's a cut-and-paste regarding the Indian Army in the Inter-war years... from Wikipedia with a bit of editing:


In 1919, the Indian Army could call upon 491,000 men, but there was a shortage of experienced officers, most of the officers having been killed or wounded in the war.[80] In 1921, the Indian government started a review of their military requirements with the protection of the North West Frontier and internal security their priority.[81] By 1925, the Army in India had been reduced to 197,000 troops, 140,000 of them Indian.[82] Battalions were now allocated one of three roles:

  • The field army of four infantry divisions and five cavalry brigades; covering troops, ["covering troops" = support units such as logistics? medical? division artillery?]
  • 12 infantry brigades and supporting arms ["supporting arms" = support artillery in HoI4 terms?] to act as a reserve force in case of invasion;
  • and finally internal security troops, 43 infantry battalions to aid the civil power and support the field army when required.[83]

The number of cavalry regiments was reduced from 39 to 21. The infantry regiments were converted into 20 large regiments with four or five battalions in each regiment plus a training battalion, always numbered the 10th, also included were ten Gurkha regiments.[84] Nine single battalion regiments were disbanded by 1922.[84] Two of the large regiments were later disbanded, the 3rd Madras Regiment for economic reasons, and the 20th Burma Rifles when Burma ceased to be governed by India.[84]

The end of World War I did not see the end of fighting for the Indian Army—they were involved in the Third Afghan War in 1919,[85] and then the Waziristan Campaign in 1919–1920 and again in 1920–1924.[86] Operations against the Afridis in 1930–1931, the Mohmands in 1933 and again in 1935 and finally just before the outbreak of World War II operations in Waziristan again in 1936–1939.[87]
 

billcorr

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1936 RAJ templates are abstracted to fit the game.
Much appreciated!

I'm guessing that a bit of thought or research went into the Raj templates. For example, the Raj's starting armor division reflects the photos of the interwar tanks depicted in photos reportedly from the Waziristan conflict:




The Raj's starting armor division template:
upload_2020-1-30_6-4-24.png


But I see your point about "abstracted"

The Raj's two infantry division templates are identical. That might be due to the abstraction process! :)
 

Kosaki MacTavish

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Can British Raj, should it goes fascist/communist, decides to militarize its population a bit? Even +15% factor would be good.
 

TRoode

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My initial impression is that the Raj army in 1936 was based on a regimental system that was task-organized to conduct operations.
Your statement seems to confirm my own findings from the (admittedly) small amount of research I've done today because of this very interesting topic. It seems to me that the Indian Army in peace time was primarily organised into battalions/regiments/brigades (in any case, not bigger than a brigade) that had the task of quelling local unrest among the various tribes and other ethnic groups. A battalion or brigade is a much more practical size to use during this kind of counterinsurgency warfare. A division is only really practical when combating another country (i.e. Nazi Germany or Japan) in large scale warfare.
 

billcorr

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Here are descriptions of the UK Army in India (not the Indian Army)

I don't know if quite got the words right. I think there are at least 2 militaries to distinguish when talking about armed forces in India.
  1. UK forces in India
  2. Actual Indian forces made up of men from the sub-continent.
  3. Maybe there were "private" military forces (??) of different princes (this is just speculation)
Here is a list of the combined English + Raj formations for UK forces in India in 1936. (I'm pretty sure it is for 1936...the Army list was published in 1937 and the latest "officer arrived in-country date" is in 1936.)
The Army List is found at https://deriv.nls.uk/dcn23/1051/9567/105195679.23.pdf



NORTHERN COMMAND:

Northern Command Peshawar District 1st Class
Commander: Maj-Gen Strettell
  • 1 Cavalry Brigade
    • Horse Artillery
  • 3 Infantry Brigades
  • Artillery
  • Two tank companies
  • 1 Anti-air battery
upload_2020-1-31_3-46-14.png

Page 68

Northern Command Kohat District
Maj-Gen Haughton
  • 1 Brigade (presumably infantry)
(It might be possible that the complete order of battle was somehow cut from the Army List)


upload_2020-1-31_3-59-13.png


page 68


Northern Command Rawalpindi page 69:
Maj-Gen de Burgh
  • 3 Infantry Brigades
  • Artillery

upload_2020-1-31_4-2-56.png

page 69




Lahore page 70:
Maj-Gen Moberly

  • 1 Cavalry Brigade
    • Horse Artillery
  • 3 Infantry Brigades
  • Artillery
  • 1 tank company
  • 1 engineer company



upload_2020-1-31_4-29-57.png

page 70

Northern Command Waziristan
Maj-Gen Robertson
  • 3 Infantry Brigades
  • Artillery
  • 1 tank company
upload_2020-1-31_4-34-3.png

page 71


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WESTERN COMMAND
Western Command Baluchistan
Maj-Gen Huddleston

  • 2 Infantry Brigades
  • Artillery
  • 1 tank company
upload_2020-1-31_5-1-37.png


page 72


Western Command Zhob
  • 1 Infantry Brigade (Independent)
upload_2020-1-31_5-4-12.png



Western Command Sind
  • 1 Infantry Brigade
  • Artillery
upload_2020-1-31_5-4-34.png




--------------------------------------------------------------------------
EASTERN COMMAND
Maj Gen Collins


  • 1 Cavalry Brigade
  • Horse Artillery
  • 3 Infantry Brigades
  • Artillery
upload_2020-1-31_5-8-22.png

page 74


Eastern District Lucknow 2nd Class
Maj Gen Milward

  • 2 Infantry Brigades
  • Cavalry (not a brigade...recon?)
  • No horse artillery
  • Artillery
  • Tank company


upload_2020-1-31_5-43-42.png



Delhi (Independent)
  • 1 Infantry Brigade (?)
  • Artillery
  • Tank company

Presidency and Assam District 2nd Class
Maj Gen Lindsay

1 Infantry Brigade (?)

upload_2020-1-31_5-50-24.png


KOSB

https://www.kosb.co.uk/history/world-war-two/

upload_2020-2-1_10-57-5.png


Interesting that the KOSB are not listed in the King's list of military units (or perhaps I missed it)
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03071843609420970?journalCode=rusi19
upload_2020-2-1_9-43-12.png

https://www.geni.com/projects/British-Army-The-Cameronians-Scottish-Rifles/39150
upload_2020-2-1_10-51-44.png

upload_2020-2-1_11-27-38.png

Any ideas what type of unit this might be?


---------------------------------------

SOUTHERN COMMAND

(I'll come back and finish it later)

Decca Southern Command
Maj Gen Nicholson

  • Cavalry Brigade
    • Royal Horse Artillery
  • 3 Infantry Brigades
  • Artillery
  • Signal company

upload_2020-2-1_13-17-31.png




Poona Southern Command (Independent Brigade)

  • 1 Infantry Brigade
  • Artillery
  • Tank Company
There might have been (will be?) cavalry associated with Poona...the Queen, IIRC, was patroness of a cavalry unit affiliated with Poona.


upload_2020-2-1_13-22-0.png



Bombay Southern Command
Maj Gen Scobell

  • 1 Infantry Brigade (Mhow brigade area)
  • Artillery
  • 1 tank company
  • 1 medical company
upload_2020-2-1_13-25-22.png




Madras District (Southern Command) 2nd class
Maj Gen Fleming

No units?

upload_2020-2-1_13-26-51.png



Burma Independent District 2nd Class
Maj Gen Twiss

  • 1 brigade
  • Artillery

upload_2020-2-1_13-28-37.png
 
Last edited:
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billcorr

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Can British Raj, should it goes fascist/communist, decides to militarize its population a bit? Even +15% factor would be good.
Hi Kosaki,

This might make a good topic for a thread dedicated to ways to get more manpower for The Raj.

My apologies, I narrowed down the scope of this particular thread (the thread originally was to be about all things Raj...but 'all things Raj' is an all-encompassing topic).

Your suggestion deserves a proper venue so that a good discussion can get going.
 

billcorr

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From the ever reliable Wikipedia: "Infantry divisions consisted of three infantry brigades, of three infantry battalions. Usually, one battalion in each brigade was British and two were Indian or Gurkha. Four brigades were raised consisting entirely of Gurkha battalions. Later in the war, as British infantry reinforcements became more scarce, particularly in the South East Asian Theatre, British battalions in brigades fighting in Burma were replaced by Indian units."
Thanks! This is useful information.

Well done.
 

billcorr

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Here's an attempt to convert the Army List units into HoI4 units.
Missing from the Army List are the details of the Indian units and Indian officers.

NORTHERN COMMAND:

Northern Command Peshawar District
Commander: Maj-Gen Strettell
  • 1 Cavalry Brigade
    • Horse Artillery
  • 3 Infantry Brigades
  • Artillery
    • 3 light batteries
    • 2 heavy batteries
  • Two tank companies
  • 1 Anti-air battery

Assumption: Cavalry is separate from the Infantry.

upload_2020-2-1_14-24-30.png

The recon unit is included given the traditional role of light cavalry. The assumption is that the unit had a light cavalry squadron (regiment? help me out here! :) )
The artillery unit is because of F Battery of the Royal Horse Artillery (R.H.A.) listed as part of Maj General Strettel's Peshawar command

Wikipedia identifies an engineer unit 1st Field Troop, 1st King George's Own Sappers and Miners as part of the to the 1st (Risalpur) Cavalry Brigade https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1st_(Risalpur)_Cavalry_Brigade&action=edit&section=4

The addition of the engineers occurred 18 years earlier in 1918 as part of the cavalry unit during the time of the Third Anglo-Afghanistan War.
upload_2020-2-1_14-34-4.png


Q: How many cavalry battalions do you think should be in this Cavalry Brigade?

Here's an attempt at the infantry division:
upload_2020-2-1_14-23-30.png







Northern Command Kohat District 2nd Class
Maj-Gen Haughton
  • 1 Brigade
upload_2020-2-1_14-37-20.png



Northern Command Rawalpindi 1st Class (1st Indian Division) page 69
Maj-Gen de Burgh

  • 3 Infantry Brigades
  • Artillery
    • 4 light batteries
    • 1 heavy batteries
upload_2020-2-1_14-40-40.png




To be continued.

Lahore page 70:
Maj-Gen Moberly

1 Cavalry Brigade
  • Horse Artillery
3 Infantry Brigades
Artillery
1 tank company
1 engineer company




page 70

Northern Command Waziristan
Maj-Gen Robertson
3 Infantry Brigades
Artillery
1 tank company

page 71


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WESTERN COMMAND
Western Command Baluchistan
Maj-Gen Huddleston

2 Infantry Brigades
Artillery
1 tank company


page 72


Western Command Zhob
1 Infantry Brigade (Independent)



Western Command Sind
1 Infantry Brigade
Artillery




--------------------------------------------------------------------------
EASTERN COMMAND
Maj Gen Collins


1 Cavalry Brigade
Horse Artillery
3 Infantry Brigades
Artillery

page 74


Eastern District Lucknow 2nd Class
Maj Gen Milward

2 Infantry Brigades
Cavalry (not a brigade...recon?)
No horse artillery
Artillery
Tank company





Delhi (Independent)
1 Infantry Brigade (?)
Artillery
Tank company

Presidency and Assam District 2nd Class
Maj Gen Lindsay

1 Infantry Brigade (?)



---------------------------------------

SOUTHERN COMMAND



Decca Southern Command
Maj Gen Nicholson

Cavalry Brigade
Royal Horse Artillery
3 Infantry Brigades
Artillery
Signal company




Poona Southern Command (Independent Brigade)

1 Infantry Brigade
Artillery
Tank Company
There might have been (will be?) cavalry associated with Poona...the Queen, IIRC, was patroness of a cavalry unit affiliated with Poona.




Bombay Southern Command
Maj Gen Scobell

1 Infantry Brigade (Mhow brigade area)
Artillery
1 tank company
1 medical company




Madras District (Southern Command) 2nd class
Maj Gen Fleming

No units?


Burma Independent District 2nd Class
Maj Gen Twiss

1 brigade
Artillery

---------------

To be continued.

What type of template would you build using the above information ? (or using other or additional information)
 

redcoat22

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One cool idea that could help some of these templates is allowing tanks and light tanks to support company’s. Seems like that would be easy to implement and create a use for small amounts of tanks... and be very historical
 

billcorr

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One cool idea that could help some of these templates is allowing tanks and light tanks to support company’s. Seems like that would be easy to implement and create a use for small amounts of tanks... and be very historical
Good idea!

Indeed! those real-life light tank companies assigned to the Raj divisions would fit in nicely as support companies.

"...and be very historical." Yes. I like that.

Ah, if Podcat's developer's diary is any indication, that might come true...light tanks as an armored Recon Company.

Combat and Intel
We have split the recon support company into several now so that it can be tailored to the division type you have, and the speed it needs to move at because now the speed on the recon company will be limiting the whole division. Meaning that if you scout your trucks with cavalry they will need to move at cavalry speed.
We have:
  • Cavalry Recon Detachment - regular horsey boys you are used to. Cheap, but not that fast.
  • Motorized Recon Company - Motorized, so jeeps and light vehicles. Fast but weak
  • Light Armored Recon Company - Armored cars
  • Armored Recon Company - Light tanks
Armored cars is a good sweet spot of capability, speed and armor while light tanks help keep your hardness and armor up in tougher divisions.
upload_2020-2-2_11-10-8.png

Very interesting.

(thanks to @sekelsenmat for pointing out Podcat's Developer's Diary)


upload_2020-2-2_10-21-23.png

If what Podcat is saying what I think he is saying, then the Raj Divisions might look something like this:


1936 Lahore Division (The Raj's beefiest division)
  • 4 Infantry Brigades
  • Artillery
    • 3 Heavy Artillery batteries
    • 1 Artillery battery
    • 1 Light Artillery battery
  • 1 tank company
upload_2020-2-2_11-2-34.png
 
Last edited:

billcorr

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Attempts to tailor Raj's starting templates to real life divisions existing in 1936 in what is now India, Burma, and Pakistan:

Northern Command Waziristan
Maj-Gen Robertson

  • 3 Infantry Brigades
  • Artillery
    • 1 light artillery battery
  • 1 tank company
page 71

upload_2020-2-2_11-17-47.png



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WESTERN COMMAND
Western Command Baluchistan (1st Class) 2nd Indian Division based out of Quetta
Maj-Gen Huddleston

  • 2 Infantry Brigades
  • Artillery
    • 1 light battery (+ 2 (?) Headquarters batteries)
  • 1 tank company
page 72
upload_2020-2-2_11-21-52.png



Western Command Zhob
1 Infantry Brigade (Independent)
upload_2020-2-2_11-24-28.png



Western Command Sind
  • 1 Infantry Brigade
  • Artillery
    • 2 Heavy Batteries
    • 1 Battery
upload_2020-2-2_11-26-11.png




--------------------------------------------------------------------------
EASTERN COMMAND
Maj Gen Collins

Meerut Division (1st Class) 3rd Indian Division
  • 1 Cavalry Brigade
    • Horse Artillery
  • 3 Infantry Brigades
  • Artillery
    • 4 heavy batteries
    • 2 batteries
page 74
upload_2020-2-2_11-31-15.png


upload_2020-2-2_11-32-45.png

The Raj's artillery-heavy division





Eastern District Lucknow 2nd Class
Maj Gen Milward

  • 2 Infantry Brigades
  • Cavalry (not a brigade...recon?)
    • No horse artillery
  • Artillery
    • 1 heavy battery
    • 3 batteries
  • Tank company
upload_2020-2-2_11-38-14.png





Delhi (Independent)
  • 1 Infantry Brigade (?)
  • Artillery
    • 2 heavy batteries
  • Tank company
upload_2020-2-2_11-41-22.png



Presidency and Assam District 2nd Class
Maj Gen Lindsay

1 Infantry Brigade (?)
upload_2020-2-2_11-45-3.png



---------------------------------------

SOUTHERN COMMAND



Decca Southern Command
Maj Gen Nicholson

Cavalry Brigade
Royal Horse Artillery
3 Infantry Brigades
Artillery
Signal company




Poona Southern Command (Independent Brigade)

1 Infantry Brigade
Artillery
Tank Company
There might have been (will be?) cavalry associated with Poona...the Queen, IIRC, was patroness of a cavalry unit affiliated with Poona.




Bombay Southern Command
Maj Gen Scobell

1 Infantry Brigade (Mhow brigade area)
Artillery
1 tank company
1 medical company




Madras District (Southern Command) 2nd class
Maj Gen Fleming

No units?


Burma Independent District 2nd Class
Maj Gen Twiss

1 brigade
Artillery


I'll finish up Southern Command a bit later