British-French Union

[Axe99]

We aren't allowed to talk about the French resistance?

No, but I can't talk about the things I can't talk about, hence I'm not referencing them here! I'll PM you .

That's true, if you're only talking about partisan movements on the continent.

The Free French forces in Africa, led by de Gualle, made contributions to the war effort through the fall of France and up to the recapture of Paris.

I suppose it depends on the scope you mean, when you say "French Resistance"

Aye, but many of those Free French forces were, by and large, off the continent before the fall of France (or very shortly afterwards), so a Franco-British Union isn't likely to have changed that side of things much (beyond giving the Union more Free-French forces, as all the Vichy territories would have stayed with the Allies).

 

[General WVPM]

No, but I can't talk about the things I can't talk about, hence I'm not referencing them here! I'll PM you .



Aye, but many of those Free French forces were, by and large, off the continent before the fall of France (or very shortly afterwards), so a Franco-British Union isn't likely to have changed that side of things much (beyond giving the Union more Free-French forces, as all the Vichy territories would have stayed with the Allies).

With all, you mean Sub Sahara Africa and Syria?
Japs would probably still annex Indochina and Italy would surely takeover atleast Tunisia.

 

[Sharp163]

With all, you mean Sub Sahara Africa and Syria?
Japs would probably still annex Indochina and Italy would surely takeover atleast Tunisia.

Italy would have captured the Maghreb region from the French with ease...

 

[Axe99]

With all, you mean Sub Sahara Africa and Syria?
Japs would probably still annex Indochina and Italy would surely takeover atleast Tunisia.

France had territories in the Caribbean, South America, Africa (North and Sub-Saharan), the Middle-East (Syria) and the South Pacific, as well as Indochina. Given Italy's difficulties with the UK in Libya, I highly doubt they had the capacity to take on France in Tunisia, and Japan attacking Indochina would have involved a DoW on the Franco-British Union, rather than being able to march into a nation that was in turmoil, so would have been a different proposition entirely (it would also mean Siam would likely never attack French Indo-China at all, rather than the unsuccessful brief conflict it did have). I think Japan would still have taken Indo-China without much trouble, but it would have been the start of the Pacific War (outside of the conflict already going on in China), and that makes the situation far more complicated.

 

[Otto of england]

With all, you mean Sub Sahara Africa and Syria?
Japs would probably still annex Indochina and Italy would surely takeover atleast Tunisia.

The Italy which failed at invading Egpyt when it out numbered the British 5:1 and then proceeded to lose its entire force? I think that French North Africa would have be fairly fine all things considered and you probably would have seen a quicker defeat in the north Africa campaign since the allies could have based aircraft out of Tunis to harass shipping to Libya.

 

[General WVPM]

In HOI3 Italy could declare war on France and take Tunisia before Germany would take Paris, so I think it will not be a problem for them in HOI4 vs a France which doesn't surrender.

 

[Sharp163]

In HOI3 Italy could declare war on France and take Tunisia before Germany would take Paris, so I think it will not be a problem for them in HOI4 vs a France which doesn't surrender.

Italy would take Morocco and push the unprepared British back to El Alamein before Germany could even get to Vichy in DH

 

[Amur_Tiger]

With all, you mean Sub Sahara Africa and Syria?
Japs would probably still annex Indochina and Italy would surely takeover atleast Tunisia.

Completely beyond the capacity of the Italians. The fate of the French navy would insure that on locking up the Med even more securely.

 

[vota dc]

The Italy which failed at invading Egpyt when it out numbered the British 5:1 and then proceeded to lose its entire force? I think that French North Africa would have be fairly fine all things considered and you probably would have seen a quicker defeat in the north Africa campaign since the allies could have based aircraft out of Tunis to harass shipping to Libya.

It never outnumbered British 5:1...total italian forces in Libya were, but they used a third of their divisions to attack in 1940, many divisions were on Tunisia border (they feared more a french invasion from there than an english one for some reason) while other were put in a silly way in forts so British managed to always get at least even numbers.

 

[Otto of england]

It never outnumbered British 5:1...total italian forces in Libya were, but they used a third of their divisions to attack in 1940, many divisions were on Tunisia border (they feared more a french invasion from there than an english one for some reason) while other were put in a silly way in forts so British managed to always get at least even numbers.

The British had about 30,000 troops during operation compass, the Italians had 130,000 captured and 15,000 killed or wounded. Which means that around Tobruk there were at least 5:1 Italian to British forces.

 

[Loke]

The British had about 30,000 troops during operation compass, the Italians had 130,000 captured and 15,000 killed or wounded. Which means that around Tobruk there were at least 5:1 Italian to British forces.

Yes, interesting ratios. Lets say the Italians was not able to use their numerical advantage. Anyway there are other fronts who had these ratios all the time... Lol

 

[Otto of england]

Yes, interesting ratios. Lets say the Italians was not able to use their numerical advantage. Anyway there are other fronts who had these ratios all the time... Lol

No for the most part in operation compass the Italian forces just surrendered in droves, for instance there were several encounters with 30,000 or so Italian POWs taken.

My original point in bringing this up was that it's doubtful IRL Italy would have made any real threat to French North Africa. The military performance was just so spectacularly bad in 1940/41 that its hard to consider them having a successful invasion (all the way to casablanca no less)

 

[Loke]

No for the most part in operation compass the Italian forces just surrendered in droves, for instance there were several encounters with 30,000 or so Italian POWs taken.

My original point in bringing this up was that it's doubtful IRL Italy would have made any real threat to French North Africa. The military performance was just so spectacularly bad in 1940/41 that its hard to consider them having a successful invasion (all the way to casablanca no less)

Yes agreed.
The Italian Libyan army was not made for a battle with modern mobile forces as the British had in Egypt.
The Italian troops were mostly Militia divisions raised in Africa, MVSN and a couple of ordinary infantry divisions, more suitable for colonial warfare.

Anyway my point - there are other fronts in WWII where these losses/ratios happened all the time.

 

[General WVPM]

No for the most part in operation compass the Italian forces just surrendered in droves, for instance there were several encounters with 30,000 or so Italian POWs taken.

My original point in bringing this up was that it's doubtful IRL Italy would have made any real threat to French North Africa. The military performance was just so spectacularly bad in 1940/41 that its hard to consider them having a successful invasion (all the way to casablanca no less)

IRL, I agree, but in HOI?
I think Italy will have a good chance of taking over French North Africa, probably that will prevent them from invading Egypt.