British-French Union

[rebus16]

We've seen the event for the unification of the UK and France in the last World War Wednesday and I wonder how probable that event is, percent wise. To be honest, if it's something like 25%, I'll just nerf it in the game files. What about you? Do you like it or not?

 

[Sharp163]

Afaik, Lebrun was eager to accept the Franco-British Union proposal, but his cabinet disagreed with the idea, calling it a "last minute attempt to steal our colonies". Furthermore, the French army was shattered and on the brink of complete collapse, due to their outdated doctrinal practices and failure to prepare for combatting blitzkreig.

The Franco-British Union would've only resulted in France's army being trapped and surrounded in the south, with nowhere to go. They all would've been captured or killed, significantly hindering the future of the French resistance.

 

[Shayson]

I think it was a not entirely unpleasant surprise on world war wednesday. I don't know anything about its actual probability of acceptance by the French historically but one could argue that in the game it might as well be a last-minute grab for the colonies after all.

The fact that Indochina and French Africa went to Britain is very interesting, and i think it needs to be taken into account how Germany and French leaders in remote locations would take something like this on the eve of France's fall.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

Afaik, Lebrun was eager to accept the Franco-British Union proposal, but his cabinet disagreed with the idea, calling it a "last minute attempt to steal our colonies". Furthermore, the French army was shattered and on the brink of complete collapse, due to their outdated doctrinal practices and failure to prepare for combatting blitzkreig.

The Franco-British Union would've only resulted in France's army being trapped and surrounded in the south, with nowhere to go. They all would've been captured or killed, significantly hindering the future of the French resistance.

Considering how bloody campaign in France had already been for Germans, Germany might not have been able to replace those extra losses, weakening them a lot. Did not Germany already conscript factory workers and give them quick training for Barbarossa? Certainly, at no point in the war did Germany have too many trained men.
Germany still would have beaten French no problem, but they would have been weaker for Barbarossa.
Also Italians, would they have kept suffering huge losses, would they have lost their face in front of the world as capable military power, or would they have learned from their mistakes?
There is so much that could have happened had battle of France lasted longer.

 

[Sharp163]

Considering how bloody campaign in France had already been for Germans, Germany might not have been able to replace those extra losses, weakening them a lot. Did not Germany already conscript factory workers and give them quick training for Barbarossa? Certainly, at no point in the war did Germany have too many trained men.

The French were in no position to decline German demands. Germany would not have lost too many troops capturing the remainders of the French army in south France, anyways... Germany only lost about 160,000 troops in the battle of France. France lost twice that.

Furthermore, compare that to the number of German deaths on the Eastern Front by 1943: nearly 3 million.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

It's good to see it as an event. What are the requirements and effects?

 

[Gort11]

Getting the French fleet would've been a heck of a coup.

 

[Sharp163]

Getting the French fleet would've been a heck of a coup.

I was discussing this in a thread the other day:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-units-when-a-country-cedes-territory.903475/

 

[Sharp163]

It's good to see it as an event. What are the requirements and effects?

I've seen it happen in Darkest Hour, but not in any other HOI game.

In darkest hour, if the Germans make too demanding peace requirements (eg. Full annexation) then the French will decline and form a "Union" with the British, continuing to fight, and Free France will not spawn.

It does not change their tag or color, all that happens is that France doesn't surrender.

Of course, Darkest Hour was not made by the Paradox team, and I have no idea how it will work in HOI4.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

The French were in no position to decline German demands. Germany would not have lost too many troops capturing the remainders of the French army in south France, anyways... Germany only lost about 160,000 troops in the battle of France. France lost twice that.

Furthermore, compare that to the number of German deaths on the Eastern Front by 1943: nearly 3 million.

Don´t play with numbers, German army in 1944 was larger than it was in 1939. To say it other way, after German had suffered 3 million losses, their army still kept increasing in size. Numbers alone are meaningless.
Thing is, in Battle of France you might have lost for example Erwin Rommel. Or some other high ranking German officers. And they certainly were important for outcome of the war, even if they alone could not change it. Suddenly, 1 loss becomes more important than 10 000. And again, maybe if Italians would have kept suffering more losses, somebody might have realised needs for improvements, and maybe that someone would have magically been able to convince Mussolini about fact that their army needed improvements before any new offensives.
Maybe after 50 000 losses more without victory, Italian soldiers might have went on strike or something. Maybe Mussolini would have noticed that and realised something he did not historically.

Anyway, not a big deal necessarily. But hey, who is to say British had so small army in alternate history, maybe in alternate history they would have decided to triple size of their expeditionary forces. With trice as much soldiers in France, what would have happened to German invasion, that at so many points could have went horribly wrong.
The big point is: I am not saying it would have changed something. I am saying, it could have changed something dramatically.

 

[sfmess]

As a rare possible event, I love it! It's pleasantly surprising to see that there are other possibilities besides Vichy + Free France form.

...my only complaint is that there wasn't more flavour to the event, it looks like it just acted as little more than an English annexation of France. I would have liked to see more events and decisions regarding the nature of the union and the direction/composition of the new government. I doubt France would have just handed Churchill the keys to everything and say "Here you go Winnie, enjoy!" ...at least have a new flag and colour or something...

 

[Axe99]

Afaik, Lebrun was eager to accept the Franco-British Union proposal, but his cabinet disagreed with the idea, calling it a "last minute attempt to steal our colonies". Furthermore, the French army was shattered and on the brink of complete collapse, due to their outdated doctrinal practices and failure to prepare for combatting blitzkreig.

The Franco-British Union would've only resulted in France's army being trapped and surrounded in the south, with nowhere to go. They all would've been captured or killed, significantly hindering the future of the French resistance.

The Union wouldn't have changed the result on the continent, but it would have had a substantial impact on the broader strategic front. Instead of most of France's navy being bottled up at Toulon (or sunk at Mers-Al-Kabir), the Franco-British navy would be massive, allowing for a much more substantial force in South East Asia when Japan started playing up. It would also have blocked Japan's moves on French Indo-China, and likely been the end of Libya as an Italian possession far earlier than was the case historically.

On topic, I'm with the OP - I'd like it to be something that's as appropriate to the situation as possible, and not terribly likely in most cases.

 

[Sharp163]

The Union wouldn't have changed the result on the continent, but it would have had a substantial impact on the broader strategic front. Instead of most of France's navy being bottled up at Toulon (or sunk at Mers-Al-Kabir), the Franco-British navy would be massive, allowing for a much more substantial force in South East Asia when Japan started playing up. It would also have blocked Japan's moves on French Indo-China, and likely been the end of Libya as an Italian possession far earlier than was the case historically.

On topic, I'm with the OP - I'd like it to be something that's as appropriate to the situation as possible, and not terribly likely in most cases.

In real life, the effect would've been drastic. The reason the French resistance was so powerful was because they surrendered with nearly their whole army intact. If the French hadn't surrendered, and formed a union with GB, their whole army would've been captured/destroyed by the Germans, trapped in the south of France. In real life, this would've made a large change, both in the mindset of the French people and in their capacity to resist German rule.

However, the game will not go so far as to simulate this.

The effect of their army being destroyed would be much less significant in the game, and you're correct in saying that Britain would enjoy the extra warships.

 

[Axe99]

In real life, the effect would've been drastic. The reason the French resistance was so powerful was because they surrendered with nearly their whole army intact. If the French hadn't surrendered, and formed a union with GB, their whole army would've been captured/destroyed by the Germans, trapped in the south of France. In real life, this would've made a large change, both in the mindset of the French people and in their capacity to resist German rule.

However, the game will not go so far as to simulate this.

The effect of their army being destroyed would be much less significant in the game, and you're correct in saying that Britain would enjoy the extra warships.

I'm no expert on the French resistance, but there are issues we're not allowed to talk about here that would play into what you're saying there, but we shouldn't talk about it so I won't say anything . PM me if you want to follow up .

 

[Turboflex]

The French Resistance wasn't much until after D-Day when the tide was demonstrably turned.

 

[kviiri]

One thing that bothers me: the event roughly states that the union is just a temporary measure to stop the Germans. If the war is won, will UK actually release the French lands?

 

[amalric de g.]

Considering how bloody campaign in France had already been for Germans, Germany might not have been able to replace those extra losses, weakening them a lot. Did not Germany already conscript factory workers and give them quick training for Barbarossa? Certainly, at no point in the war did Germany have too many trained men.
Germany still would have beaten French no problem, but they would have been weaker for Barbarossa.
Also Italians, would they have kept suffering huge losses, would they have lost their face in front of the world as capable military power, or would they have learned from their mistakes?
There is so much that could have happened had battle of France lasted longer.

Germany lost exactly 49.000 dead and 110.000 wounded, against 360.000 dead and wounded allies, 1.900.000 allies were captured.

The troops in the Maginot Line are encircled. France had 40 Divisions left (Frontline nearly 1000km), from 108 Divs., after juni.17.1940, so how could France fight on in the south?
Against 104 German Divisions.

 

[General WVPM]

I'll have to try it once the game is released, but I think I'll disable it.

 

[inteljoe]

One thing that bothers me: the event roughly states that the union is just a temporary measure to stop the Germans. If the war is won, will UK actually release the French lands?

Overall I think that "on paper" it sounded like a good idea, but with the British acting as overlords over French lands/army as a temporary measure is more or less a "business as usual" mentality. Meaning that IRL things would go on as they did before. The only difference is that in the constructs of the game, IC and other benefits (army, navy, air force, equipment, etc) are handed over to the British player who can then redirect them as needed per their strategy. Although the issue is if the British player can keep the newly granted lands and factories so as to be beneficial to the war effort.

 

[Sharp163]

I'm no expert on the French resistance, but there are issues we're not allowed to talk about here that would play into what you're saying there, but we shouldn't talk about it so I won't say anything . PM me if you want to follow up .

We aren't allowed to talk about the French resistance?

The French Resistance wasn't much until after D-Day when the tide was demonstrably turned.

That's true, if you're only talking about partisan movements on the continent.

The Free French forces in Africa, led by de Gualle, made contributions to the war effort through the fall of France and up to the recapture of Paris.

I suppose it depends on the scope you mean, when you say "French Resistance"