Now then, let's talk a bit about the history of Nordic countries in WW2 in the light of the recent developer diary about Britain:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...velopment-diary-26th-of-february-2016.910637/
Once again, the game is looking really good and the focus trees offer a lot of interesting possibilities. However, this little quote caught my attention:
Now, I'm fully aware that discussing about this topic will almost certainly just summon the same troll horde that derailed the previous thread, but I'll give it a try regardless.
My point:
If the devs want to follow historical route with the "Scandinavian Intervention"-part of the British Home Defense tree, the Allied intervention plans to Scandinavia should be linked to Winter War and to the Phoney War period in general. And if the Allies opt to prepare to intervene in Scandinavia, that should in turn affect German and Soviet plans.
Why?
Because during the OTL "Drôle de guerre" the question of Swedish iron ore became a central question in Allied economic blocade strategy, and the outbreak of the Winter War further increased the geopolitical importance of Norway and Sweden in the general context of WW2. Right now it seems that in the game Britain has the option to intervene to Scandinavia, but without any connection to the historical context that led the Allies to ambitiously (and unrealistically) expand the early plan that only involved a bit of naval mine-laying at Norwegian territorial waters. Historically the Allied Supreme War Council came up with a plan to use the Winter War as a pretext to escalate the war to Scandinavia in order to deny the Swedish iron ore from the Germans, and in order to create a whole new northern front against Germany:
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/UK-NWE-Norway/UK-NWE-Norway-2.html
Accordingly, what was approved by the Supreme War Council at its first meeting of the year 1940 on 5th February was a British scheme, which contemplated the provision of two or more Allied brigades on the Finnish front, but laid its chief emphasis elsewhere. This was timed for action by mid-March. On its way to rescue the Finns the main striking force was to land at Narvik and advance along the railway to Kiruna and Gällivare, the two centres of the North Swedish orefield, and on to the Baltic port of Lulea; it was hoped to establish the equivalent of two Allied brigades along this line before the latter part of April, when weather conditions would normally open the Baltic to German seaborne expeditions and also facilitate a German advance overland through Sweden. A second force of five British Territorial battalions was to occupy three ports in southern Norway, so as to provide us with bases for the general defence of Scandinavia (and an alternative route to Finland) and to deny those bases to the Germans. Trondheim (with Namsos) would be the principal Allied base, Bergen an important subsidiary base and the terminal point of our northern mine barrage; Stavanger, on the other hand, would probably not be occupied longer than was necessary to demolish the airfield, which is the nearest on the Continent to Scapa Flow. Two British divisions were held back from France for these immediate tasks. But the plan also provided for much larger forces, drawn from both French and British sources, to be passed through Trondheim for an eventual campaign in southern Sweden. The British would in the end put about 100,000 men in the field, the French perhaps 50,000. Forty destroyers would be needed for close escort duty, besides making the protection of the convoys the main preoccupation of the Home Fleet. The air component totalled six and a half squadrons of aircraft, including three of fighters and four squadrons of home based heavy bombers would also be employed. These are for that period of the war big figures, but not extravagantly so, if the Chiefs of Staff were right to call the scheme our 'first and best chance of wresting the initiative and...shortening the war'.
The Soviet and German espionage systems were both at least partially aware of this development. Because of it, Stalin suddenly reversed his policy of conquest and opted to sign a truce with Finland, thus removing the pretext of violating Norwegian and Swedish neutrality and causing yet another delay to the Allied plans. Hitler reacted to the same news by commencing the German invasion of Norway mere days before the Allies made their move in the north.
I'd like to see this development represented in the game since I find it interesting and often-ignored aspect of the early part of WW2.
But as it is, it seems that the Allied interventions to Scandinavia will happen regardless of the historical context.
Winter War will once again be dealt as an isolate oddity, where Soviets first demand 10% of prewar Finnish territory from the outset of the negotiations, then invade and then inexplainably just stop and call it a day while they are steamrolling Finland (as they should), and opt for OTL 1940 borders without any real in-game reason to stop the war. All I'd like to see is some historical connectivity in this issue. It's all rather simple and straightforward:
Allies had plans for Scandinavia, then Soviets invaded Finland and those plans grew into something bigger, which then had an effect to both Soviet and German plans.
Like Johan said in this interview:
http://www.polygon.com/features/2016/1/25/10806780/hearts-of-iron-4-and-the-hard-work-of-history
So, in this spirit of historical connectedness:
I'd be more than happy with a situation where the British activation of "Scandinavian Intervention"-focus will launch an event, where the Soviet Union get the options to either follow the historical route and sign a truce with Finland, or go ahead with the conquest of the country. As it is, the threat of the Allied Scandinavian intervention was the primary reason Stalin decided to take a time-out and stop the war against Finland. It was also the primary reason for Hitler's decision to occupy Denmark and invade Norway before the Allies could do it. So please, I'd like to see this in game as well.
And that's the point of the thread. No nationalistic bias, no attempt to claim that WINTER WAR WAS THE CRUCIAL TURNING POINT OF WW2 JUST LOOK AT THE FACTS! Nope. I merely desire to see some logical historical continuity here. A leading to B, which in turns affects C, and so on. IMO it would be a really minor change which would make the game more interesting, with the extra benefit that would give us the option to see Sweden turned into a battlefield
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...velopment-diary-26th-of-february-2016.910637/
Once again, the game is looking really good and the focus trees offer a lot of interesting possibilities. However, this little quote caught my attention:
Now, I'm fully aware that discussing about this topic will almost certainly just summon the same troll horde that derailed the previous thread, but I'll give it a try regardless.
My point:
If the devs want to follow historical route with the "Scandinavian Intervention"-part of the British Home Defense tree, the Allied intervention plans to Scandinavia should be linked to Winter War and to the Phoney War period in general. And if the Allies opt to prepare to intervene in Scandinavia, that should in turn affect German and Soviet plans.
Why?
Because during the OTL "Drôle de guerre" the question of Swedish iron ore became a central question in Allied economic blocade strategy, and the outbreak of the Winter War further increased the geopolitical importance of Norway and Sweden in the general context of WW2. Right now it seems that in the game Britain has the option to intervene to Scandinavia, but without any connection to the historical context that led the Allies to ambitiously (and unrealistically) expand the early plan that only involved a bit of naval mine-laying at Norwegian territorial waters. Historically the Allied Supreme War Council came up with a plan to use the Winter War as a pretext to escalate the war to Scandinavia in order to deny the Swedish iron ore from the Germans, and in order to create a whole new northern front against Germany:
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/UK-NWE-Norway/UK-NWE-Norway-2.html
Accordingly, what was approved by the Supreme War Council at its first meeting of the year 1940 on 5th February was a British scheme, which contemplated the provision of two or more Allied brigades on the Finnish front, but laid its chief emphasis elsewhere. This was timed for action by mid-March. On its way to rescue the Finns the main striking force was to land at Narvik and advance along the railway to Kiruna and Gällivare, the two centres of the North Swedish orefield, and on to the Baltic port of Lulea; it was hoped to establish the equivalent of two Allied brigades along this line before the latter part of April, when weather conditions would normally open the Baltic to German seaborne expeditions and also facilitate a German advance overland through Sweden. A second force of five British Territorial battalions was to occupy three ports in southern Norway, so as to provide us with bases for the general defence of Scandinavia (and an alternative route to Finland) and to deny those bases to the Germans. Trondheim (with Namsos) would be the principal Allied base, Bergen an important subsidiary base and the terminal point of our northern mine barrage; Stavanger, on the other hand, would probably not be occupied longer than was necessary to demolish the airfield, which is the nearest on the Continent to Scapa Flow. Two British divisions were held back from France for these immediate tasks. But the plan also provided for much larger forces, drawn from both French and British sources, to be passed through Trondheim for an eventual campaign in southern Sweden. The British would in the end put about 100,000 men in the field, the French perhaps 50,000. Forty destroyers would be needed for close escort duty, besides making the protection of the convoys the main preoccupation of the Home Fleet. The air component totalled six and a half squadrons of aircraft, including three of fighters and four squadrons of home based heavy bombers would also be employed. These are for that period of the war big figures, but not extravagantly so, if the Chiefs of Staff were right to call the scheme our 'first and best chance of wresting the initiative and...shortening the war'.
The Soviet and German espionage systems were both at least partially aware of this development. Because of it, Stalin suddenly reversed his policy of conquest and opted to sign a truce with Finland, thus removing the pretext of violating Norwegian and Swedish neutrality and causing yet another delay to the Allied plans. Hitler reacted to the same news by commencing the German invasion of Norway mere days before the Allies made their move in the north.
I'd like to see this development represented in the game since I find it interesting and often-ignored aspect of the early part of WW2.
But as it is, it seems that the Allied interventions to Scandinavia will happen regardless of the historical context.
Winter War will once again be dealt as an isolate oddity, where Soviets first demand 10% of prewar Finnish territory from the outset of the negotiations, then invade and then inexplainably just stop and call it a day while they are steamrolling Finland (as they should), and opt for OTL 1940 borders without any real in-game reason to stop the war. All I'd like to see is some historical connectivity in this issue. It's all rather simple and straightforward:
Allies had plans for Scandinavia, then Soviets invaded Finland and those plans grew into something bigger, which then had an effect to both Soviet and German plans.
Like Johan said in this interview:
http://www.polygon.com/features/2016/1/25/10806780/hearts-of-iron-4-and-the-hard-work-of-history
So, in this spirit of historical connectedness:
I'd be more than happy with a situation where the British activation of "Scandinavian Intervention"-focus will launch an event, where the Soviet Union get the options to either follow the historical route and sign a truce with Finland, or go ahead with the conquest of the country. As it is, the threat of the Allied Scandinavian intervention was the primary reason Stalin decided to take a time-out and stop the war against Finland. It was also the primary reason for Hitler's decision to occupy Denmark and invade Norway before the Allies could do it. So please, I'd like to see this in game as well.
And that's the point of the thread. No nationalistic bias, no attempt to claim that WINTER WAR WAS THE CRUCIAL TURNING POINT OF WW2 JUST LOOK AT THE FACTS! Nope. I merely desire to see some logical historical continuity here. A leading to B, which in turns affects C, and so on. IMO it would be a really minor change which would make the game more interesting, with the extra benefit that would give us the option to see Sweden turned into a battlefield
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