Bring back the Emperor

[Hayro]

also lets not forget Wilhelm II often manipulated by his generals and ministers then got backstabbed by them

 

[Thure]

also lets not forget Wilhelm II often manipulated by his generals and ministers then got backstabbed by them

Exactly. He was a weak emperor. Not a evil one. The biggest problems were his generals and ministers... and that he was easy to manipulate.

For exemple the killing of the Herero and Nama in Namibia. This was just the plan of Lothar von Trotha himself. The German gouvernment disliked the decision to kill the people and repealed it. It was just to late because in this time it allready happened in Namibia.

 

[EmperorTojo]

snips

From wikipedia:

"On 2 December 1919, Wilhelm wrote to Field Marshal August von Mackensen, denouncing his own abdication as the "deepest, most disgusting shame ever perpetrated by a person in history, the Germans have done to themselves... egged on and misled by the tribe of Judah ... Let no German ever forget this, nor rest until these parasites have been destroyed and exterminated from German soil!"[29] Wilhelm advocated a "regular international all-worlds pogrom à la Russe" as "the best cure" and further believed that Jews were a "nuisance that humanity must get rid of some way or other. I believe the best thing would be gas!"[30]"

Kaiser willhelm can't pull the "but I got Jewish friends!" on this one. Unless this is the formal antisemitism you refer to (lol) but you can apologize for him all you want though. I was somewhat exaggerating about german master race but yeah.

And he wasn't completely powerless, either.

 

[Hayro]

meh
anger control issues...

also people dont get angry with someone for nothing...

 

[Thure]

From wikipedia:

"On 2 December 1919, Wilhelm wrote to Field Marshal August von Mackensen, denouncing his own abdication as the "deepest, most disgusting shame ever perpetrated by a person in history, the Germans have done to themselves... egged on and misled by the tribe of Judah ... Let no German ever forget this, nor rest until these parasites have been destroyed and exterminated from German soil!"[29] Wilhelm advocated a "regular international all-worlds pogrom à la Russe" as "the best cure" and further believed that Jews were a "nuisance that humanity must get rid of some way or other. I believe the best thing would be gas!"[30]"

Kaiser willhelm can't pull the "but I got Jewish friends!" on this one. Unless this is the formal antisemitism you refer to (lol) but you can apologize for him all you want though. I was somewhat exaggerating about german master race but yeah.

And he wasn't completely powerless, either.

Pointless speechs... As I said... The German elite at this time was formaly anti-semitic. They allways blame Jews... But without consequences. As I said... In personal live Wilhelm didn't has any problems with Jews. And at this point he was angry. And yes there was formal antisemitism... sounds strange... But this was the case. The elite was antisemitic in there speechs and parols... Many people claim to be antisemitic if they talk with other elitar people. BUt mostly there wasn't more then words. They speek about the evil Jews... And later they drink cafe with there Jewish friends... It wasn't perfect... But in the German Kaiserreich the Jews were still a important player. They were mostly accepted in the society beside this formal antisemitism. In the Wilhelminian period it was more easy for Jews then later.

There were also many Jewish soldiers in the German Army in WWI. And even Jews who get the Iron Cross.

And he was completely powerless... At least in the world war. Hindenburg and Ludendorff from the OHL (Oberste Heeresleitung) were the de facto rulers of Germany at this time. Wilhelm never had much freedom of choice at the world war. You can't blame him for any of the acts of German soldiers and officers... He wasn't the one who give the orders.

 

[Clio]

Oh...hehe...monarchists
If there was one good thing about the "evil" time in Germany - than that the importance of aristocracy were reduced, to the, possible minimum back than.

In game terms:
Its really possible that Wehrmacht revolt, as it was nearly happend in 1938 in "amunition crisis". But I doubt honestly, that they would send some invitation letter to Doorn.
More Goerdeler, Beck and Fritsch than Wilhelm II.

Off course, I support everything, what brings more possibilities to the game. So Paradox, make it for the monarchists

Thank you. Agreed, of course. CONCERT OF EUROPE!!!! BALANCE OF POWER!!! MONARCHY!!!

 

[shierholzer]

Unless this is the formal antisemitism you refer to (lol) but you can apologize for him all you want though.

(Largely) non-violent Antisemitism was a common european phenomen during the time. Jews were easy to blame (almost no non-jewish relatives) - and people blamed them for whatever bad stuff happened (unless a culprit was already clearly defined). People were killed - Jews (until police managed to round up a murderer). Wars lost - Jews. Bad harvest - Jews.
Issuing 'I'm going to kill you' statements is a common part of the time's antisemitism - actually killing Jews isn't. It's entirely possible that this is just a expression of usual bragging, as well as real extreme antisemitism. We'll never know (unless someone invents a time travel machine, allowing us to test it).

And he was completely powerless...

Nope. Wilhelm not wielding power doesn't imply he couldn't.

 

[Thure]

(Largely) non-violent Antisemitism was a common european phenomen during the time. Jews were easy to blame (almost no non-jewish relatives) - and people blamed them for whatever bad stuff happened (unless a culprit was already clearly defined). People were killed - Jews (until police managed to round up a murderer). Wars lost - Jews. Bad harvest - Jews.
Issuing 'I'm going to kill you' statements is a common part of the time's antisemitism - actually killing Jews isn't. It's entirely possible that this is just a expression of usual bragging, as well as real extreme antisemitism. We'll never know (unless someone invents a time travel machine, allowing us to test it).

Exactly this was it. I don't know it was in other countries... But for Germany this is true. The most people had this. Even if they had Jewish friends. But at least it wasn't antisemitism like under the Nazis... The Jews weren't killed and they could get good positions.

Nope. Wilhelm not wielding power doesn't imply he couldn't.

Yes he could... But he didn't do it. He was powerless because of his personality which allows Hindenburg to take the real power. I just said he was powerless... Not that he couldn't be powerful. He could if he had a stronger personality. But he didn't.

 

[shierholzer]

I don't know it was in other countries...

(classic european) Antisemitism has its roots deep in medivial times. All three monotheistic religions forbade money lending (at least, if you're going to make profit), muslims were insignificant in christian europe, leaving Jews to act as the continents bankers for almost a millenium. People hated the banker part - not the jewish part. However, over generations people forgot why their ancestors hated so much people with Jewish religion as a common denominator, and started to hate Jews for being somehow evil. All non-American societies have population groups hated for being somehow evil. Americans don't, mostly because their societies are just 300-400 years old. The fact, that Jews aren't technically allowed to marry non-Jews, just increased this. They made themselves vulnerable by being genetically seperate from the remaining population - and reinforced public opinion of them being some sort of secret conspiracy ((not saying that Jews are guilty of being murdered (or hated). They are NOT - there is nothing like being guilty for being a victim.)).

 

[Hayro]

anyway thread got derailed and its time bring its tracks

so gents can we expect to see this as expansion pack in HOI4?

 

[lemonsquid]

 

[George The Eco]

So... atheists aren't afraid of commiting genocide? Right. I think I'm going to commit a genocide now, as for being atheist and so, and I'm going to start with really ill-informed god-fearing people who think only religious ones have ethics. Just being sarcastic, mind you, but that commentary hurt.

I think he meant that more in light of and atheist doesn't have a set of ethics given to him by his religion and thus creates his own ethics or follows social norms and values has no obligation to follow them after all if you don't believe that there is punishment after you die,why not do bad things.So although I don't think all atheist are bad and immoral I do think that atheist are not necessary as obliged to be good as religious persons and could bring themselves to such things more easily seeing as there are no consequences.

 

[dav77-b]

I think he meant that more in light of and atheist doesn't have a set of ethics given to him by his religion and thus creates his own ethics or follows social norms and values has no obligation to follow them after all if you don't believe that there is punishment after you die,why not do bad things.So although I don't think all atheist are bad and immoral I do think that atheist are not necessary as obliged to be good as religious persons and could bring themselves to such things more easily seeing as there are no consequences.

I think religious people are more obliged to be evil. The dont feel bad hurting humans of other confessions, especially christians who doesnt have to fear anyhting as they think all sins will be forgiven. This makes all christians to potentiel criminials and
murderers.
Religion causes people to hold on bad ethics just because something was mentioned in a book. And not commiting murder because you fear the punishment of god makes you worse then an atheist who decide that murder is bad because his ethics make him
feel so.
If we look at the USA or Africa people doing cruel things in the name of god. AND they feel good doing this. Humanity developed religion to fill the unknowing with knowledge we dont have to fear. With advantage of Science religion will vanish. Ethics will stay.

 

[SFSLovenought]

"X group is more inclined to be evil!" - Dummkopf
"No, Y group is more inclined to be evil!" - Moron
"Thread locked because of bigoted shenanigans" - Mod

 

[Adonnus]

Seeing as this thread isn't even about something in the timeline of the game, well...

 

[Secret Master]

Yes, this thread has outlived its usefulness.

If you want to discuss atheism and religion, you can do it somewhere else. It's OT for this thread and this forum.