Bring Back Sots Prime style map control!

[DaveDash]

Er... what?
Sots 2 is a new game, like literally. New engine, no recycled code. The strategic AI works fundamentally differently than Prime. AI that we haven't really seen yet considering its been hobbled.
The UI generally has less micromanagement that Prime, especially when you get to late game, and the devs have been saying for nearly 6 months that the game will receive significant UI polish once feature complete is hit.

So what? They still could have used similar code for the strategic AI portion, instead, they went way out of their depth and tried to do too much at once. And now we have a game with fundamental features missing such as random generated maps (which are a huge fundamental for re playability in most 4X titles today), to make way for some new terrain feature that 6 months after "release" is still as useless as anything.

The only real micromanagement hassle that SoTS prime had was fleet management, hence why they changed the system for SoTS 2, but you have severely rose tinted glasses on if you think right now there is less micromanagement in SoTS 2 vs 1. It's virtually unplayable late game (especially on maps with 6+ players) due to the sheer amount of clicking, bad filters, way too many screens to go into to do things, etc.

At the end, you and I are just going to have to disagree. I think the UI is going to be the weakest part of the game, and I firmly believe that there was never really a proper design of how all these new features work together in the first place. Kerberos went out of their depth with SoTS 2 and it shows to me.

 

[unmerged(201662)]

Your belief doesn't make you right either. Lots of people believe in things that are completely bogus and in error all throughout history. Welcome to the human condition. I will say and remind you (since you are trying so hard to remind us all of the great evils pertaining to this GAME), it's a GAME. Try to keep that in perspective and you might be a happier person. I have to ask, if you belief this and seem to dislike it so much....why are you spending your time on it? It's meant to be entertainment. If SotS Prime was (is?) your game it sounds like you found your game/entertainment. Not every game will please everyone, nor be the game for everyone. I know if there is a something I don't like, especially a game that I don't enjoy or like, I move on with life.

 

[DaveDash]

I am not trying hard at anything. I am calling it as I see it.

I want this game to turn out better than it is, and Ive constantly praised it as having one of the best combat engines I have seen in almost any game. SoTS is not my game because it doesn't have the SoTS 2 combat engine. SoTS 2 is not my game because of the appalling UI/UX design.

But sadly the user experience portion of the game is sorely lacking. We are six months plus after release date. I don't have confidence in the developers after the huge mistake of releasing the game in a pre alpha state, I dont have confidence in their project management abilties, resource allocation, and base UX design/wireframing of the UI/UX. I fear the UI/UX part of the game is going to suffer as a consequence, based on the impression I am getting that they think it's mostly good enough.

Until my confidence is restored in them, I and others like me will have serious concerns and misgivings about parts of the game.

Simple as that really.

 

[Kogyr]

I would also like to see a random map generator. I honestly don't like any of the maps in SOTS2. The only map I really like is the SOTS Verse map but then you start right next to all the computers when there is such a big universe.

What does the Terrian do in this game?

 

[unmerged(213587)]

I would also like to see a random map generator. I honestly don't like any of the maps in SOTS2. The only map I really like is the SOTS Verse map but then you start right next to all the computers when there is such a big universe.

What does the Terrian do in this game?

I was wondering about "Terrain" also.

I have never seen any terrain in all of the videos I have watched.
On their website they call asteroid belts and moons terrain.
It looks like terrain is just graphical eye candy and yet the game is being made a slave to it.

To tell the truth, I have even given up on the first game, SotS 1.

Top much information that is needed to make decisions is missing.
The tech tree doesn't give you much information about the techs, doesn't tell what buildings and ship items get unlocked, and there is no indication of what the following techs will be.
You basically have to make blind decisions.

If you research cruisers you still can't build cruisers and are left wondering what you need to do to build cruisers because the game keeps the information hidden.
Too much is like that.

Then, when there is a battle I very often find myself just sitting there for 1-2 minutes waiting for the enemy to even come into sight while dramatic, and with very distorted sound, music plays. Then I often find that I cant get the camera onto the action because all of the ships are too far away, including my own.
Why is the camera set on a certain sector of space rather than being capable of moving to where the ships are?

I'm really not interested in researching every aspect of the game and memorizing the entire tech tree and build orders and prerequisites in order to play the game.

 

[Agent.nihilist]

I was wondering about "Terrain" also.

I have never seen any terrain in all of the videos I have watched.
On their website they call asteroid belts and moons terrain.
It looks like terrain is just graphical eye candy and yet the game is being made a slave to it.

Load up a game, click normal view, click Terrain, voila.
"Terrain" are areas of space linked to systems used by the AI for Diplomacy, measuring military power and higher strategic functions.

To tell the truth, I have even given up on the first game, SotS 1.

Top much information that is needed to make decisions is missing.
The tech tree doesn't give you much information about the techs, doesn't tell what buildings and ship items get unlocked, and there is no indication of what the following techs will be.

yes it does, double click on the techs and it shows you a description, with what it allows you to build, as well as any sections unlocked.

You basically have to make blind decisions.

That is the idea

If you research cruisers you still can't build cruisers and are left wondering what you need to do to build cruisers because the game keeps the information hidden.
Too much is like that.

Wherever did you get that idea? Once you unlock crusiers your can immediately start designing and building them.

Then, when there is a battle I very often find myself just sitting there for 1-2 minutes waiting for the enemy to even come into sight while dramatic, and with very distorted sound, music plays. Then I often find that I cant get the camera onto the action because all of the ships are too far away, including my own.
Why is the camera set on a certain sector of space rather than being capable of moving to where the ships are?

camera starts out on your ships, You can lock the camera to a ship with F or the middle mouse button, and you can also tab between all your ships.
If your music is distorted you have your volume too loud.

I'm really not interested in researching every aspect of the game and memorizing the entire tech tree and build orders and prerequisites in order to play the game.

There is nothing to memorize, Each tech in the tree tells you what it does in detail(sans numbers) and the random nature of the game makes build paths foolish. There's only a handful of tech with multiple pre-reqs, and none of them are required for a win.

 

[unmerged(213587)]

I see now that I can build those cruisers.
They didn't show on the build screen because I hadn't designed them yet and I didn't think I could design them because I was looking in the Destroyer screen.

Thanks for the tip on centering and zooming using the middle mouse button. That fixed that issue for me.

You are right about the music distortion. It isn't distorted. I is the sound of the rockets rumble because I was zoomed in fairly close.
Though it still makes the sound seem distorted.

I can accept the design decision to make the techs random but it makes it problematic whether to, more instance, choose Plasma Cannon, Light emitters, Green Lasers or Particle Beams.
Though, in the real world you would never know what tech would be invented so it is actually realistic for the later techs to be unknown.

Ironically, I have made that very argument in various gamer forums and usually been met with disagreement. The argument being that many players like playing the tech path.
But faced with the blind techs I find myself somewhat uncomfortable.
Oddly enough I used to play Alpha Centauri with blind tech turned on and just accepted whatever the computer gave me and worked with it.
But that was completely blind with no tech choices capable of being made.

Anyway, thanks for the pointers.
I basically like the game.

 

[Kogyr]

Load up a game, click normal view, click Terrain, voila.
"Terrain" are areas of space linked to systems used by the AI for Diplomacy, measuring military power and higher strategic functions.

So Terrain provides the player nothing, just the AI gets benefit? I would rather see Terrain removed from the game then and Random Maps be made available.

 

[Agent.nihilist]

So Terrain provides the player nothing, just the AI gets benefit? I would rather see Terrain removed from the game then and Random Maps be made available.

<Facepalm> If you don't care about gimping the AI, then use the community provided random generator. To most people, having competent AI IS a benefit.

 

[unmerged(419658)]

It would be a benefit. At moment the AI is only a stupid cheater.

 

[Kogyr]

<Facepalm> If you don't care about gimping the AI, then use the community provided random generator. To most people, having competent AI IS a benefit.

A competent AI is one thing but having the computer AI have options available that are not available to the player is something I don't agree with.

 

[unmerged(201662)]

Sigh

AI only "Cheats" as you put it in one area (finances). Otherwise it plays the game the same way as we do. Mecron has said that they specifically wrote the code in such a way to make it extremely HARD for them to have the AI "Cheat".

rage nope...the AI usues the same "eyes" as you do...in fact we designed both this game and prime to be MORE difficult to give AI players special info so that we would not be tempted down that dark path.

Re: Random Map generator. Kerberos has said that there is one coming, but most likely not till an expansion. Although I won't say it won't make it into the core game, (never say never), it is highly unlikely. However there is one coming at some future date.

 

[Agent.nihilist]

A competent AI is one thing but having the computer AI have options available that are not available to the player is something I don't agree with.

?? The hell are you talking about?
The AI plays by the same rules as the players do when it comes to knowing about things, they are limited to their sensor view.
Terrain allows them to understand things like "the 3 systems in this area has 12 fleets" or "Player 2 has 4 Leviathans here, but none over here"
Its a spacial recognition and information filtering system that allows the AI to make better use of the information it has.

 

[Kogyr]

?? The hell are you talking about?
The AI plays by the same rules as the players do when it comes to knowing about things, they are limited to their sensor view.
Terrain allows them to understand things like "the 3 systems in this area has 12 fleets" or "Player 2 has 4 Leviathans here, but none over here"
Its a spacial recognition and information filtering system that allows the AI to make better use of the information it has.

I am trying to figure out what the hell Terrian does in the game since I don't understand it, you could be a little less rude with your remarks.

I understand somewhat what you mean by spacial recognition and information filtering but if the AI has to have sensor view just like us, I still don't get what the Terrian of a map does. I click on the Terrian view, it overlays the enter map with meaningless graphics. How do I get "the 3 systems in this area has 12 fleets" information from this view?

 

[Agent.nihilist]

I am trying to figure out what the hell Terrian does in the game since I don't understand it, you could be a little less rude with your remarks.

I understand somewhat what you mean by spacial recognition and information filtering but if the AI has to have sensor view just like us, I still don't get what the Terrian of a map does. I click on the Terrian view, it overlays the enter map with meaningless graphics. How do I get "the 3 systems in this area has 12 fleets" information from this view?

Ok, so lets say I draw up a 100 square mile map, and tell you that somewhere on this map are 200 people that you have to avoid or you lose. I also tell you where those people are by landmarks that are not marked on the map.
Even though you know the area they are in, and where they are, you will have a very hard time avoiding them because you have nothing that relates the landmarks the people are at, with the area of the map they are in.

Now lets say I split the map into 12 sectors, and list what landmarks are in what sector. You now have something that relates the landmarks to specific areas on the map. This lets you figure out things like oh, 3 sectors contain 160 of the 200 people, I should avoid them.
Thats what the terrain system does, it relates known ship numbers, planets colonized, and other information to specific areas of 3d space. It lets the AI do things like go, "Oh even though this system has 0 defenders, I should not attack it because there are 12 fleets in the same area, I should attack the area with 2 fleets instead."


Edit: I may have misunderstood you a little here

How do I get "the 3 systems in this area has 12 fleets" information from this view?

As long as a system is within sensor view, you can see what fleets are there, so you essentially get this information from your brain. On the other hand, the AI needs a system in place in order to make higher level decisions like this. For players, because terrain areas are named they works as a communication and navigation aid in multiplayer.

Edit: P.S. I'm being a little "rude" because you are making assumptions and asking for things to be removed instead of asking for clarification. I don't take kindly to "I don't understand, so kill it"

 

[Kogyr]

Ok, so lets say I draw up a 100 square mile map, and tell you that somewhere on this map are 200 people that you have to avoid or you lose. I also tell you where those people are by landmarks that are not marked on the map.
Even though you know the area they are in, and where they are, you will have a very hard time avoiding them because you have nothing that relates the landmarks the people are at, with the area of the map they are in.

Now lets say I split the map into 12 sectors, and list what landmarks are in what sector. You now have something that relates the landmarks to specific areas on the map. This lets you figure out things like oh, 3 sectors contain 160 of the 200 people, I should avoid them.
Thats what the terrain system does, it relates known ship numbers, planets colonized, and other information to specific areas of 3d space. It lets the AI do things like go, "Oh even though this system has 0 defenders, I should not attack it because there are 12 fleets in the same area, I should attack the area with 2 fleets instead."

Edit: I may have misunderstood you a little here
As long as a system is within sensor view, you can see what fleets are there, so you essentially get this information from your brain. On the other hand, the AI needs a system in place in order to make higher level decisions like this. For players, because terrain areas are named they works as a communication and navigation aid in multiplayer.

You above explanation is more a lot more informative than "...AI for Diplomacy, measuring military power and higher strategic functions". You understood my question and answered it. Its clear but I still don't see why they coded it that way. The could have easily coded it to check for fleets with in x light years with out creating Terrain.

Now, seems to me that the strategic thinking/coding would need to take into account the races technology. Take the Hiver race for instance, with instance travel between systems no matter what Terrian the fleet was in, the logic they programmed is failing to account for this.

Edit: P.S. I'm being a little "rude" because you are making assumptions and asking for things to be removed instead of asking for clarification. I don't take kindly to "I don't understand, so kill it"

I have been asking for clarification. My statement about removing was based on your first reply saying the the AI uses is for Diplomacy, Military measurements, and higher strategic functions. My response was a question: so the player gets nothing from this just the computer does? My next statement is were you are assuming I want it removed because I don't understand it. I wanted it removed because the higher strategic functions implies to me that the computer has options in game that the player does not, not because I don't understand it, remove it.

Thanks again for taking the time to write out the explanation.

 

[Agent.nihilist]

You above explanation is more a lot more informative than "...AI for Diplomacy, measuring military power and higher strategic functions". You understood my question and answered it. Its clear but I still don't see why they coded it that way. The could have easily coded it to check for fleets with in x light years with out creating Terrain.

Now, seems to me that the strategic thinking/coding would need to take into account the races technology. Take the Hiver race for instance, with instance travel between systems no matter what Terrian the fleet was in, the logic they programmed is failing to account for this.

Ah see but that would only work for military strength. For why its done that way, think of it this way. What is more efficient? Querying several dozen variables at each system every-time a choice needs to be made, or querying 12 datasets that have already have the variables resolved?

For Hivers I'd imagine its less "They have x fleets in area" and more "They have x fleets in the sector adjacent to me".

I have been asking for clarification. My statement about removing was based on your first reply saying the the AI uses is for Diplomacy, Military measurements, and higher strategic functions. My response was a question: so the player gets nothing from this just the computer does? My next statement is were you are assuming I want it removed because I don't understand it. I wanted it removed because the higher strategic functions implies to me that the computer has options in game that the player does not, not because I don't understand it, remove it.

Thanks again for taking the time to write out the explanation.

I should have been more clear, I was trying to get across that its the external representation of part of the AI decision making process, that is used for spacial information gathering and used by the AI for diplomatic and strategic choices.

 

[Hounds]

At the risk of sounding completely ignorant of game design (oh wait, I am!)... do most or all games like this use terrain? or just a few or ? :huh: ... and I guess I am asking your or anybody's opinion on this ... Is this a good way to go in the sense of efficient/good general game design? And do other games use this method?... no criticism intended or implied here... just curious? Might as well learn something while I wait for the "all clear" ...

 

[Agent.nihilist]

At the risk of sounding completely ignorant of game design (oh wait, I am!)... do most or all games like this use terrain? or just a few or ? :huh: ... and I guess I am asking your or anybody's opinion on this ... Is this a good way to go in the sense of efficient/good general game design? And do other games use this method?... no criticism intended or implied here... just curious? Might as well learn something while I wait for the "all clear" ...

Most games that are turn based don't have to deal with 3d space, so I doubt many use anything close to identical. However Most use some sort of construct to limit scope of information so the AI can make more relevant decisions without requiring large amounts of CPU time, It just usually doesn't have a layer visible to the player.