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orwell

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What brigades do you consider worthwhile? SP Art, or should I aim for SP Rocket art? I plan on attaching the brigades to tanks, and MECs since it was my understanding that they can work in low inf provinces much like infantry, unlike MOTs. Are Tank destroyers worthwhile when attacking Germany? Accodring to my spy info from my last game, they had 3 armor units in 1943.
 

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Vanilla brigades are generally not worth building. Spearhead corps could get some self-propelled artillery; self-propelled rocket artillery is slightly better, but requires several extra research steps.
Tank destroyers and anti-tank brigades are not worth building at all.
 

blue emu

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toxone said:
Engineers brigades are nice too.
I disagree there... Engineers are junk.

They aren't even as good at River assault-crossings as a constant-Manpower stack of Infantry is.

Five vanilla Infantry (50 Manpower) actually have more battle-winning ability when attacking across a River than four Infantry-Engineers (50 Manpower)... despite the Engineer's 20% bonus on cross-River combat.

If Engineers aren't even any good at crossing Rivers... then they can't be good for very much.

Similarly, the Engineers' +0.5 speed bonus is rather over-rated. Four Corps, each of three Infantry-Engineers, take territory slower (not faster) than five Corps, each of three vanilla Infantry... 10% slower.
 

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toxone said:
Engineers brigades are nice too.
Only if every division in the corps has one, and only if they are of types that actually benefit from engineers, and only in situations where that +0.5 speed actually matters.

I play with modded brigades, but I find it quite difficult to make engineers, anti-tank and tank destroyers worthy alternatives to artillery without giving them significantly increased soft attack, which just makes them artillery with a different name.
 

orwell

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I was also wondering if MEC's will cover ground well in low infra provinces, or are they like MOT's? Should I still use inf to take places with very little infrastructure?
 

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blue emu said:
I disagree there... Engineers are junk.

They aren't even as good at River assault-crossings as a constant-Manpower stack of Infantry is.

Five vanilla Infantry (50 Manpower) actually have more battle-winning ability when attacking across a River than four Infantry-Engineers (50 Manpower)... despite the Engineer's 20% bonus on cross-River combat.

If Engineers aren't even any good at crossing Rivers... then they can't be good for very much.

Similarly, the Engineers' +0.5 speed bonus is rather over-rated. Four Corps, each of three Infantry-Engineers, take territory slower (not faster) than five Corps, each of three vanilla Infantry... 10% slower.

Your explanation about eng. and river crossings makes sense (even though you might not always have 5 divisions in place instead of 4...) but I don't understand the second part-why is 5 corps w/o eng. faster than 4 with? That isn't clear to me.
 

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Mechanized Infantry is an alternative to Armour: it has higher soft attack, uses less TC and is cheaper in terms of IC-days, but is also considerably softer, costs more manpower and has slightly lower hard attack - in other words, more IC-/TC effective but less MP-effective. It counts as a hard unit when configuring Combined Arms formations.
 

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mlipo said:
why is 5 corps w/o eng. faster than 4 with? That isn't clear to me.
They can beat defenders quicker and also conquer more undefended provinces at the same time. For a continuous march through a narrow chain of undefended provinces, fully engineer-equipped infantry would be faster, but that is a rather rare situation.
 

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mlipo said:
Your explanation about eng. and river crossings makes sense (even though you might not always have 5 divisions in place instead of 4...) but I don't understand the second part-why is 5 corps w/o eng. faster than 4 with? That isn't clear to me.

I believe this relates to the fact that 5 corps can attack 5 provines while 4 will be attacking 4, so to take 20 provinces the 5 corps will attack 4 times and the 4 corps will attack 5 times. The 5 vanilla corps attacking 4 times will take the 20 provinces 10% faster than the 4 brigaded corps attacking 5 times.

It is a little abstract as you are unlikely to have such a plain straighforward attack sweep open to you, but it is mathematically sound and over the duration of the game its the maths that usualy wins through.
 

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Oh-it's coming down to numbers again. I'm probably going to get laughed at, but when I ferry troops across an ocean, I usually don't have an unlimited capacity to do that ferrying. I want the best divisions possible to land and do the fighting. If you have five corps, that is great...but sometimes I will only have 4, and I want those 4 to be fast and tough as possible.
 

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mlipo said:
Oh-it's coming down to numbers again. I'm probably going to get laughed at, but when I ferry troops across an ocean, I usually don't have an unlimited capacity to do that ferrying. I want the best divisions possible to land and do the fighting. If you have five corps, that is great...but sometimes I will only have 4, and I want those 4 to be fast and tough as possible.
This is a perfectly correct point, but also a strictly limited one.

As a general rule, brigades are useful when they improve the bangs-per-buck ratio of the Division they attach to. In game terms, this means that expensive Divisions (eg: Armor and Mech) benefit from brigades, while cheap Divisions like Infantry are actually less effective when brigaded... if you measure in terms of constant-Manpower, or constant-ICs, or constant-TC... not in terms of constant numbers of units.

In other words... you have only so much Manpower, IC-days and TC-limit to spend; and spending it on un-brigaded Infantry allows you to purchase more fighting power (more battle-winning ability) with those resources than spending it on brigaded Infantry. For expensive units like Armor, the opposite is true... you get more battle-winning ability by spending your resources on fewer, brigaded Armor than by spending it on a somewhat larger number of un-brigaded Armor.

The main exception is the one that you pointed out... in specific situations where your stacking is sharply limited (eg: Amphibious Assault, Sea Transport, Paradrop, or very VERY narrow fronts), brigades are an advantage simply because you cannot fit the extra un-brigaded units into the fighting line.

It should be borne in mind, however, that these situations are very much the exception... it would be extremely inefficient (and ill-advised) to deliberately configure your army so that it will do well in rare, exceptional cases but will do poorly in typical cases.

Just as a random example... when starting a new 1936 campaign as the Germans, I will detach all my original starting brigades and give them all to the forces holding the French border facing the Maginot Line... it's a narrow front, with limited stacking, so every Division gets a brigade. I do not, however, build any more brigades until I have Armor or Marines to attach them to.
 

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Okay, Emu-thanks for taking the time to explain-not 100 percent convinced, because there are many times where I might have 40 or 50 divisions to conquer somebody-not because that's all I can build, but because that is all I can get into the fight. Thanks again.
 

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So what would be the best brigade combination for 3 Marine divisions (or if need be, 3 infantry divisions) executing an amphibous assault?

I thought I read somewhere in the manual (but now I can't find it) that Engineers reduce the penalty from fortifications, is that true?

Thanks,

Stilicho
 

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stilicho said:
So what would be the best brigade combination for 3 Marine divisions (or if need be, 3 infantry divisions) executing an amphibous assault?
Artillery. Some prefer SP-Art, but I don't see the point. My Marines always travel by boat, not by walking, so the speed penalty is basically irrelevant.

You're better off with five or six Marines attacking, by the way... not just three.

stilicho said:
I thought I read somewhere in the manual (but now I can't find it) that Engineers reduce the penalty from fortifications, is that true?
I'm told that they damage Fortifications... although I've never seen this actually happen. I don't think they reduce the Fort penalty. Fortress Buster Leaders do, though.
 

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:( Well, there are rather more limited front situations than is often accepted. Secondly the right choice of brigades also affects / corrects significant other imbalances - early if you are not German (or Russian??) do not under rate Armoured Car Brigades. Later Light Armoured are also worth a look. For some one like the UK brigades are needed to make progress - like actually winning fights. The issue with A/C & L/A is the multiple gain - stats rise and so does org so you get more of both the increase and what you had to start. For early ish (36 & 39) divs and doctrines in the early 40's you can more by brigading than not. Earlier than that and its even bigger gain - can't find my sheets but depending on the exact mix 25% to 50% (mix = doctrines, div tech & brigade). With the Doomsday change to TC then vanilla brigades can be more TC efficient than more Divs. Next is cracking Hard targets - here the limitation is span of control - so increasing the no of divisions is almost entirely a waste past control / command limits - often worse as your casualties climb hurting the limits of MP, wasting IC etc.

Here is a quick (& dirty) example -
IV Cav, with Sup Fire, Grand Battle Plan, Mass Assault, Trench Warfare - quite common / achievable early on.

With basic Armoured Car (allowing for less soft, more Tough, more Defence & org bonus) This is more than 30% better @ resiting than with out. It is also more than 30% better vs soft, and 66% better vs hard. Cost is 3.6 TC vs 3.0 and 11 MP vs 9. Net positive on all fronts by my count.

Next CAREFULLY consider the impact of your doctrines - if Going Grand Battle plan route then late YOU MUST use the brigades to get the benefit of Assault Concentration - 20% morale & Org to the entire unit.
 
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BlueEmu, i totally agree with you but one point: MAR-ART. I never research conventional artillery past the point where i can get SP-ART. So equipping my 3-9 MARs with Art would soon leave them with outdated equipment, for a small IC gain. You research further?
And in addition i use them in infantry role, i just keep them on the coast.
 

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Brennan Tatesaid : a lot.[/QUOTE said:
I have heard the dabate about brigades and there worth over and over but never have i seen someone look at it from this perspective. The joint upgrade/doctrine benefits.

I use brigades anyway for flavour (not on all units just some) but it certainly makes me think again as to their cost effectiveness.

Has anyone done a propper set of caculations testing what Brennan has put forward? I would be very interested to see them if so...
 
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For mobile German armies (Arm+Mot) I prefer to not use brigades with speedcaps, exept for the Arm, as they generally are a bit faster than the Mot. H-Arm and AA is good for Arm, AA-2 (as they have no speedcap) and SpArt for the Mot.
For regular armies no brigades are neccessary, except perhaps AA.

For the Soviet Infantry Army, Artillery is King; it helps equalize the German advantage in doctrines early on. Of course, one could just as easily build lots and lots of either Inf or Mil.
 

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I have carried out extensive analysis of brigades attached to infantry divisions. It doesn't need elaborate considerations of doctrines or any secondary issues (include various brigade cost modifiers and the like) since even taking the most optimistic adjustments the vanilla infantry build always wins out. Vanilla infantry has better battle winning capability per manpower, IC or TC invested.

The only area where any case can be made for brigades on vanilla infantry is for artillery. The total army capability (for manpower content) can be slightly improved by adding a small percentage of artillery brigades but this assumes the speed penalty is inconsequential. If specialised tactics are assumed then artillery throughout becomes more manpower efficient but only if you are expecting to lose lots of battles and depend on the fact that you have inflicted higher losses on the enemy than you have taken and ultimately win by attrition. This is an impractical global strategy as it completely gives the initiative to the enemy.

Other than on vanilla infantry you will find brigades are generally a good idea as blue emu has indicated. The useful brigades list is quite limited with engineers, AT, AA, SPAT all being completely useless for any plausible opposition.

The recommendations are artillery for special stacking situations (marines and paratroops), SPA or HA II/III for mobile units, AC and LT if you really fancy (no comprehensive analysis done).

Whenever you build a brigade and claim a unit is better with the brigade than without you must think about what you could have built instead and what you could have researched instead.