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daftrhetoric

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Isn't it Great?
In so many other stories the protagonist is trying to rescue a princess from captivity. Isn't it fun to see what all the fuss is about?

Respond to The Questions

Are there ways to capture members of foreign courts without war?
Can characters be targeted for capture in war? It seems capturing the holding they're located in doesn't guarantee it.
Can 'Hiding' be circumvented?

An Interesting Case
I'm about to realize my first tribal empire and it's opening some very interesting questions. The ability to take prisoners concubines and in turn marry them creates the opportunity to gain entree to tremendous claims through bride kidnapping.
I'm playing a Kievan Rus' campaign and I'm at war with Bulgaria. I just assassinated my old wife so our son and shared heir could inherit her lands. It happens that my king slew the Bulgarian king in battle and Bulgaria has a very long regency ahead; weak claim pretenders have a decade to press, and a Bulgarian bride suddenly seems like a very good idea. Almost all the claimants are in hiding.

Game Theory Discursive
The central artifact of the game is family, and bride kidnapping radically changes the player's relationship with family mechanics. I'd suggest it's broken, but that's only from the point of view of keeping the game's challenge curve regular. It's absolutely consistent with the RP perspective. The problem with keeping the difficulty curve smooth is that in strategy games (and real game theory) knowledge of options is the most essential currency and generates discontinuous rewards analogous to the potential barriers that form its challenges.
 
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Harassercat

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Very interesting points and I'm feeling I should have figured out this strategy myself. It seems effective to me but hardly broken because it's not always that easy to imprison the woman that you want to "kidnap" -- you have to siege and take the capital holding where she resides and to successfully do that you already need to have a measure of military strength vs the realm you're trying to target. But great idea for getting the wife you really want but can't have because of religion.
 

daftrhetoric

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@Harassercat
It overcomes more barriers than religion alone. Captured married women can be made concubines; it's possible to gain marriages with any captured female character unconditionally.
It's true capturing the right characters is chance. That's what I'm exploring, and I invite answers and discussion re targeted capture and gaming obstacles.

Bride kidnapping is the standard, encyclopedic term.
 
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Harassercat

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It reminds me of various other in-court "agreements" that you can make unilaterally. Typically, inviting a prestigious male claimant and then marrying him matrilineally to whatever woman from your dynasty you happen to have in your court in order to "breed claims" as I call it. It feels a bit like an exploit because a prince who comes to a court hoping for support for his claim on a title wouldn't necessarily give up all of his independence and be okay with marrying whoever his host pleases. Kidnapping brides is at least somewhat realistic in comparison.
 

StarSword

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Very interesting points and I'm feeling I should have figured out this strategy myself. It seems effective to me but hardly broken because it's not always that easy to imprison the woman that you want to "kidnap" -- you have to siege and take the capital holding where she resides and to successfully do that you already need to have a measure of military strength vs the realm you're trying to target. But great idea for getting the wife you really want but can't have because of religion.
Yeah. About the only other way to capture a woman is to use Intrigue focus. AFAIK that only works inside the realm, and you can just arrange concubinage with her liege for that.
 

Sonmi

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Honestly, I feel that this specific "exploit" should be allowed for feudal Abrahamic rulers as well, it makes no sense that I can't force some woman I just captured into marriage.
 
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RelVleDy

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Game Theory Discursive
The central artifact of the game is family... I'd suggest it's broken, but that's only from the point of view of keeping the game's challenge curve regular. It's absolutely consistent with the RP perspective. The problem with keeping the difficulty curve smooth is that in strategy games (and real game theory) knowledge of options is the most essential currency and generates discontinuous rewards analogous to the potential barriers that form its challenges.

Wha-? This is a forum, not your college thesis. Rub some salt into this topic.
 

daftrhetoric

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Honestly, I feel that this specific "exploit" should be allowed for feudal Abrahamic rulers as well, it makes no sense that I can't force some woman I just captured into marriage.
One sense is that concubinage is a mechanically necessary step in bride kidnapping. Another sense is the question of politics and laws in the game and historical reality. In many feudal cultures bride-kidnapping was already seen as a sex-crime of low moral prestige.
I suppose the question is which kind of sense are you trying to find, mechanical or historical?
 
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Dr Gonzo

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I've been having fun with this in my current (Zuni) play through. I can never stop myself from taking princesses as concubines... what I hadn't thought about is that the new non-aggression pacts/alliances mean that it is way easier to make capital out of family relationships.

If it's something you only recently discovered then welcome to the club. The horrible horrible club. I first got into the habit playing as the Zoros back in pre-Raja days.
 

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It is totally reasonable to stop Emperor of HRE from holy waring you by kidnap and marry his daughter. :p
 
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Greybeard0815

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There is something that hasn't been dealt with in no mod that I know.

I mean it's all fun and stuff, but has anyone ever been on the receiving end of this? Your wife/daughter/whatever getting captured by some Pagan and then forced into concubinage?

There really should be a CB or plot (preferably both) that would help you get her back.
 
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I feel like children of concubines shouldn't be in line to inherit their mother's titles, if the mother was abducted. As far as the mom's realm is concerned the kid is a bastard and probably a heathen one at that. Give them a weak claim at best I think. No way one kidnapping should let you peacefully inherit a realm.
 

Dragatus

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That could be done. If a prisoner is turned into a concubine, she could get a trait called Abducted or Forced Concubine that disinherits her in the same way that Bastard and Nun do now. And there could be a "Rescue" CB which you can use against people if they or any of their vassals have a courtier with the Forced Concubine trait that is your close relative or shares your dynasty. If you win you get the courtier back, concubinage is dissolved, and their Forced Concubine trait is removed.
 
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I just wonder why cant I force a ruler into concubinage? I mean id I capture you emoress of Francia, the moat powerful realm in europe, why cant I make you a concubine? Not saying ive done it yet but it might just happen, Francia is cathar so the female ruler is a lot more likely.
 
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I just wonder why cant I force a ruler into concubinage? I mean id I capture you emoress of Francia, the moat powerful realm in europe, why cant I make you a concubine? Not saying ive done it yet but it might just happen, Francia is cathar so the female ruler is a lot more likely.

I'm sure there is a mod for that, but I see your point.
 

Ciniod

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A ruler forced into concubinage should immediately abdicate to their next heir of course.
Eould ruin the point of having a ruler concubine though... im guessing you can do slmething like this by capturing the daughter of some ruler and plotting to kill until she inherits when she is already concubine or does that remove concubine status? Not hard to test with some console commands.
 

Rationalsanity

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I think a concubine that inherits a holding is no longer a concubine. Which also doesn't make any sense.
 
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