Breton monarchs

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Having read through the thread on the inheritance of Brittany with keen interest, I was wondering whether any work had been done on fantasy dukes for Brittany beyond 1532 who might have some historical existence, much as has been the case for a number of other states that went by the board after the death of a last monarch or the absorption into a larger state. I was unable to find any such after using the search engine and scrolling through a few threads.

To that end, I offer the following as fantasy dukes for Brittany post-1532: the counts (and dukes) of Penthieve. I only had genealogical sources available, so the monarch scores are somewhat fantastic. I welcome any amendments that might be made on historical bases.

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 04948 }
name = "Jean VII *"
startdate = {
year = 1532
}
enddate = {
year = 1566
}
DIP = 4
ADM = 5
MIL = 4
dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 04949 }
name = "Sebastien *"
startdate = {
year = 1566
}
enddate = {
year = 1569
}
DIP = 5
ADM = 4
MIL = 4
dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 04950 }
name = "Philippe-Emmanuel *"
startdate = {
year = 1569
}
enddate = {
year = 1602
}
DIP = 5
ADM = 7
MIL = 8
dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 04951 }
name = "Marie de Luxembourg *"
startdate = {
year = 1602
}
enddate = {
year = 1623
}
DIP = 4
ADM = 6
MIL = 3
dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 04952 }
name = "César *"
startdate = {
year = 1623
}
enddate = {
year = 1665
}
DIP = 5
ADM = 5
MIL = 5
dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 04953 }
name = "Louis I *"
startdate = {
year = 1665
}
enddate = {
year = 1669
}
DIP = 4
ADM = 6
MIL = 4
dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 04954 }
name = "Louis II Joseph *"
startdate = {
year = 1669
}
enddate = {
year = 1697
}
DIP = 4
ADM = 4
MIL = 6
dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 04955 }
name = "Louis III Alexandre *"
startdate = {
year = 1697
}
enddate = {
year = 1737
}
DIP = 5
ADM = 6
MIL = 5
dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 04956 }
name = "Louis IV Jean *"
startdate = {
year = 1737
}
enddate = {
year = 1793
}
DIP = 5
ADM = 3
MIL = 5
dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 04957 }
name = "Jean VIII *"
startdate = {
year = 1793
}
enddate = {
year = 1820
}
DIP = 4
ADM = 4
MIL = 6
dormant = no
}

I also suggest the following military leaders for Brittany.

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = ????? }
category = monarch
name = "Artur III"
startdate = {
day = 22
month = september
year = 1457
}
enddate = {
day = 26
month = december
year = 1458
}
rank = 0
movement = 3
fire = 4
shock = 2
siege = 0
dormant = no
}
historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = ????? }
category = monarch
startdate = {
year = 1569
}
deathdate = {
year = 1602
}
name = "Philippe-Emmanuel" # the historical Duc de Mercoeur
rank = 0
movement = 4
fire = 3
shock = 3
siege = 0
}

 

[Norrefeldt]

Leaders for states that historically were absorbed are welcome, even more so if they have some historical backing. Are these relatives of any kind, or completely made up?

To have leaders included we need some account of their historical achievement, of battles and forces they led.

 

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Arthur III is the connetable Arthur de Richemont of Charles VII after he became duke of Britanny.
But he became duke of Britanny in 1457 being 64 years old. He died in 1458 at 65 years old from natural death. I don't think that making him a leader during is two last years of live is appropriate.

Philippe Emmanuel de Mercœur belongs to the Lorraine family. He married the duchess of Penthièvre and was governor of Bretagne. He was one of Ligue's chief. He made his submission to Henri IV among the last ones to do that in 1597.

If a FUC leader exist for him, it would be correct to have him being a breton leader instead if Britanny exists during the french wars of religion.

 

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Philippe Emmanuel de Mercœur became count of Penthièvre only in 1576 so between 1569 and 1576 the monarch is Marie de Luxembourg.

Louis II Joseph must be monarch until is death in 1712 (He ceded his rights to the county to an illegitimate son of Louis XIV when he became vice-king of Catalogne in 1697). Louis II Joseph is the historical Grand Vandôme one of best general of Louis XIV. He must be a breton leader (instead of a french or spanish one) if Britanny is independant.

I don't think that the son (1697-1737) and great-son (1737-1793) of Louis XIV and Madame de Montespan are accurate monarchs for an independant Britanny.

 

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Thanks for all the information. These (mostly) historical counts and dukes of Penthieve (and in the case of Philippe Emmanuel, duc de Mercoeur, governor of Brittany) are offered up as a basis from which to work.

On reflection, I agree with you about Artur III. And Louis Joseph would be a superb addition as a military leader:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Joseph,_duc_de_Vendôme

As I've noted, the monarchs are based on historical counts and dukes of Penthievre, descended from a cadet branch of the sovereign house of Brittany. Though as the Wikipedia article linked below notes, that duchy (and peerage of France) passed into the Bourbon house by the marriage of Francoise de Lorraine to César de Vendôme in the 17th century, passing thence into the Orleans cadet branch of that house, hence the inclusion of the illegitimate son and grandson of Louis XIV in the list of monarchs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_of_Penthièvre

Upon reflection, I think that the dates for César may well be wrong - too early an accession for him. Perhaps we just need to keep Francoise as duchess until she dies - no Salic Law in Brittany, after all - to be succeeded by son, Louis de Vendôme and her grandson, Louis Joseph. After that - ? Should the duchy pass into the hands the house of Bourbon? Probably not, given the historical circumstances by which Louis Joseph gave up his rights and claim to Louis Alexandre.

Did Louis Joseph, duc de Vendôme, have a son or a daughter to inherit?

But, as I say, I am more than open to the inclusion of other Breton nobility who would have a more compelling claim to be "princes and dukes of Brittany".

As for deriving leadership statistics for Mercoeur, here is some information from the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica:

MERCCEUR, PHILIPPE EMMANUEL DE LORRAINE, Due DE (1558-1602), French soldier, was born on the 9th of September 1558, and married Marie de Luxemburg, duchesse de Pen-thievre. In 1582 he was made governor of Brittany by Henry III., who had married his sister. Mancceur put himself at the head of the League in Brittany, and had himself proclaimed protector of the Roman Catholic Church in the province in 1588. Invoking the hereditary rights of his wife, who was a descendant of the dukes of Brittany, he endeavoured to make himself independent in that province, and organized a government at Nantes, calling his son " prince and duke of Brittany." With the aid of the Spaniards he defeated the due de Montpensier, whom Henry IV. had sent against him, at Craon in 1592, but the royal troops, reinforced by English contingents, soon recovered the advantage. The king marched against Mercceur in person, and received his submission at Angers on the 2oth of March 1598. Mercceur subsequently went to Hungary, where he entered the service of the emperor Rudolph II., and fought against the Turks, taking Stuhlweissenburg (Szekes-Fehervar) in 1599. Mercceur died on the I9th of February 1602.

 

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And, yes, we should have Marie de Luxembourg before and after Philippe Emanuel (duc de Mercoeur), her husband.

 

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As I've noted, the monarchs are based on historical counts and dukes of Penthievre, descended from a cadet branch of the sovereign house of Brittany. Though as the Wikipedia article linked below notes, that duchy (and peerage of France) passed into the Bourbon house by the marriage of Francoise de Lorraine to César de Vendôme in the 17th century, passing thence into the Orleans cadet branch of that house, hence the inclusion of the illegitimate son and grandson of Louis XIV in the list of monarchs.

Agree. The mariage between Françoise de Lorraine and César de Vendôme made the duchy to pass in the house of Bourbon-Vendôme. So there is no problem with the these three monarchs (César, Louis, Louis-Emmanuel).

Upon reflection, I think that the dates for César may well be wrong - too early an accession for him. Perhaps we just need to keep Francoise as duchess until she dies - no Salic Law in Brittany, after all - to be succeeded by son, Louis de Vendôme and her grandson, Louis Joseph.

Yes no salic law so the fief can be inherited by girls but when the duchess was married the consort was in charge. And when César died in 1565, his son Louis was immediatly proclamed duke although the duchess Françoise was still alive. We really need Françoise as a monarch only betwreen the death of her father and her marriage.

After that - ? Should the duchy pass into the hands the house of Bourbon? Probably not, given the historical circumstances by which Louis Joseph gave up his rights and claim to Louis Alexandre.

Agree.

Did Louis Joseph, duc de Vendôme, have a son or a daughter to inherit?

He didn't.

As for deriving leadership statistics for Mercoeur

There is no FUC leader for him ?

 

[matteli]

Nice work btg.

Perhaps, you can start the fantasy monarch before 1532 because after the death of Claude (daughter of Anne de Bretagne) in 1524, it's François, the son of François I and Claude who became the duke of Brittany.

If in the inheritance of Brittany, France don't have the traity of le Verger's event, we can say that Penthièvre became duke of brittany.

So you can make, a dynasty of penthievre's duke dormant and if the event's of le verger doesn't happened, in 1524 you can wake up yours dukes.

 

[Norrefeldt]

Could we have a comment in the "remark" part of the Fantasy monarch of whoe they were? It might be difficult for a reader to understand if they are real people or pure fantasy.
We ususlly don't move leaders from the historically served country to their native land if they are not the rulers of it. Sometimes it wasn't even the deciding factor for military, as many men served other countries than their native one, even if the native land had an army. Napoleon won't be a Corsican leader even if Corsica is active for example.

 

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Alright, starting in 1524 and carrying through Louis II Joseph (have to sort out who has the best claim to the sovereign duchy thereafter), and including Marie de Luxembourg as suggested.

#House of Brosse

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 04948 }
name = "Jean VII *"
startdate = {
day = 20
month = july
year = 1524
}
enddate = {
year = 1566
}
DIP = 4
ADM = 5
MIL = 4
dormant = no
remark = "Comte de Penthièvre"
}

#Jean may actually have died in 1564, therefore changing Sebastien's start date. Need to verify this....

#House of Luxembourg

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 04949 }
name = "Sebastien *"
startdate = {
year = 1566
}
enddate = {
year = 1569
}
DIP = 5
ADM = 4
MIL = 4
dormant = no
remark = "Duc de Penthièvre, son of Jean VII"
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 04950 }
name = "Marie *"
startdate = {
year = 1569
}
enddate = {
year = 1576
}
DIP = 4
ADM = 6
MIL = 3
dormant = no
remark = "Marie de Luxembourg, duchesse de Penthièvre"
}

#House of Lorraine
#Marie de Luxembourg marries Philippe-Emmanuel de Lorraine, Duke of Mercoeur

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 04951 }
name = "Philippe-Emmanuel *"
startdate = {
year = 1576
}
enddate = {
day = 19
month = february
year = 1602
}
DIP = 5
ADM = 7
MIL = 8
dormant = no
remark = "Philippe-Emmanuel, duc de Mercoeur"
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 04952 }
name = "Marie *"
startdate = {
day = 19
month = february
year = 1602
}
enddate = {
year = 1623
}
DIP = 4
ADM = 6
MIL = 3
dormant = no
remark = "Marie de Luxembourg, duchesse of Penthièvre"
}

#House of Bourbon
#Succession passes to the family Bourbon through Marie's son-in-law, the husband of her daughter Francoise de Lorraine, César de Vendôme, natural son of Henri IV of France

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 04953 }
name = "César *"
startdate = {
year = 1623
}
enddate = {
day = 22
month = october
year = 1665
}
DIP = 5
ADM = 5
MIL = 5
dormant = no
remark = "César, duc de Vendôme"
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 04954 }
name = "Louis I *"
startdate = {
year = 1665
}
enddate = {
year = 1669
}
DIP = 4
ADM = 6
MIL = 4
dormant = no
remark = "Louis II de Vendôme, son of César and Francoise"
}

historicalmonarch = {
id = { type = 6 id = 04955 }
name = "Louis II Joseph *"
startdate = {
year = 1669
}
enddate = {
day = 11
month = june
year = 1712
}
DIP = 4
ADM = 4
MIL = 6 #should be higher?
dormant = no
remark = "Louis III de Vendôme"
}

Louis II Joseph (Louis III de Vendôme) died without issue. After his death - ?

A few possibilities:

1) Philippe, Prior of Vendôme: surviving brother of Louis Joseph, a priest, 57 years old at the time of his brother's death - bring him out of the cloister? If so, scores should be fairly poor - he was described as indolent. Would need fantasy children, of course.

2) Francois de Beaufort, second son of César and Francoise, so uncle to Louis Joseph: not sure whether he had any children himself, though, who could have inherited Louis Joseph as cousins

3) Elisabeth, daughter of César and Francoise, who married Charles Amédée de Savoie-Nemours, and whose eldest daughter by him married Charles-Emmanuel II of Savoy (their son being Victor-Amédée II of Savoy and king of Sardinia) - would the sovereign duchy of Britanny subsequently pass into the Kingdom of Sicily on Louis II Joseph's death? thence to the Kingdom of Sardinia? Perhaps a vassal state to Savoy, with Victor-Amédée as duke until his death?

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/César_de_Vendôme

For even more fun, consider these other children of Victor-Amédée II of Savoy and the possibilities they present:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor-Amédée_II_de_Sardaigne

Should Britanny pass to the crown of France (at long last!) through Marie-Adélaïde and Louis, dauphin de France? (This may actually be the more "historical" course, given that Marie-Adélaïde is the eldest child.)

Should Britanny pass to the descendants of Marie-Louise, who married Philippe de Bourbon (Felipe V of Spain)? Become part of the crown of Spain? Pass to a cadet branch of the House of Borbon?

Interestingly, Mercoeur is not listed as a military leader for the French Ultra-Catholic faction in the game as it stands. As a monarch, however, Philippe-Emmanuel would certainly be a military leader for Brittany, and not for France or the Ultra-Catholic faction. This should also be the case for Louis II Joseph.

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = ????? }
category = monarch
startdate = {
year = 1569
}
deathdate = {
year = 1602
}
name = "Philippe-Emmanuel"
rank = 0
movement = 4
fire = 3
shock = 3
siege = 0
remark = "historical duc de Mercoeur"
}

Louis Joseph appears among the French military leaders as the game stands as "Joseph de Vendome", with the following military statistics. His start date is given as 1702, presumably to coincide with the War of Spanish Succession. How much earlier should his start date be as the military leader of an independent Brittany? Probably not his accession date (1669), as he was only 15 years old at the time.

historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = ????? }
category = monarch
name = "Louis II Joseph"
startdate = {
year = 1702
}
deathdate = {
year = 1712
}
rank = 0
movement = 4
fire = 3
shock = 4
siege = 1
dormant = no
remark = "Louis III Joseph, duc de Vendôme"
}

It would also appear that Francois de Bourbon-Vendôme (1616-1669), the second son of César de Vendôme and Francoise de Lorraine, was a capable military leader as well - perhaps general as well as admiral. But should he be so for an independent Brittany?

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/François_de_Vendôme

I like the idea of there being an event (or commands in an existing event) tied to one of the early treaties by which Francois, king of France and last duke of Brittany, is made dormant and the counts and dukes of Penthièvre are awakened as Breton monarchs.

Of course, an independent Brittany, especially under a Catholic defender like Philippe-Emmanuel de Lorraine, might tip the balance somewhat in the French Wars of Religion. Events to be drawn up there, no doubt.

Whew!

 

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Researching this a bit more, we discover further descendants of Marie-Adélaïde: eldest daughter of Victor-Amédée II, duke of Savoy, prince of Piemonte, king of Sicily, then of Sardinia); granddaughter of Charles-Emmanuel II, duke of Savoy, and Marie Jeanne Baptiste (the daughter of Charles Amédée de Savoie-Nemours and Élisabeth, sister of Louis de Vendôme - Louis I of Brittany in this monarch list - and daughter of César de Bourbon-Vendôme and Françoise de Lorraine). Thus, these are the descendants of the great-great-granddaughter of César de Bourbon-Vendôme and Françoise de Lorraine.

The only surviving child of Marie-Adélaïde (+1712, a few months before Louis III Joseph de Vendôme - our Breton Louis II Joseph) and Louis, dauphin de France (+1712) is Louis, duc d'Anjou, who of course becomes Louis XV of France.

So, one option is to have Brittany become part of the crown lands of France in 1712, after the death of Duke Louis II Joseph.

Another is for Louis to inherit the ducal coronet after the death of Louis II Joseph (as Louis III, duc de Bretagne), with Brittany's becoming vassalized to France upon Louis' accession to the throne of France in September 1715; or, with Brittany's being absorbed by France upon Louis' accession (perhaps an event to decide?).

If Brittany were to remain independent of - though vassalized to - France, then Louis could remain duke as Louis III either until his death in 1774, or until the birth (14 August 1727) or majority of his eldest child, Madame Infante Louise Élisabeth de France (1727-1759). Presumably, upon her marriage to Philippe de Bourbon (later, duke of Parma) on 25 October 1739 (?), he would become duke. Upon his death (18 July 1765) their son Ferdinand would succeed (he historically succeeded as duke of Parma), remaining duke of Brittany until his death (9 October 1802).

Maximilien de Saxe, prince of Saxony and husband of Caroline, Philippe's daughter and eldest child, would then succeed to the duchy of Brittany (the duchy of Parma passing to Caroline's brother Louis for only two short years until his death). Maximilien would remain duke until his death in 1838.

http://www.geneal.com/capet/D_Cap004.htm

http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Regions/Allemagne/Saxe.htm

I think I've worked all this out properly....

 

[unmerged(45766)]

Could we have a comment in the "remark" part of the Fantasy monarch of whoe they were? It might be difficult for a reader to understand if they are real people or pure fantasy.
We ususlly don't move leaders from the historically served country to their native land if they are not the rulers of it. Sometimes it wasn't even the deciding factor for military, as many men served other countries than their native one, even if the native land had an army. Napoleon won't be a Corsican leader even if Corsica is active for example.

True, but not for that reason. Napoleon wouldn't be a leader even for France if the Revolution didn't take place.

It more depends on events and political situation. But in some case, for example if the leader was member of a leading noble family both in the absorbed and in the absorbing country, there's no doubt he could be leader in the absorbed country, should it survive.