breakthroughs and attrition: why does it happen?

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Hello Eugenioso,
Nice to meet you.

I have played HOI in different forms for many years. I recently bought Darkest Hour, and wish to convey that I find your post (written years ago :) ) well written and a valueable read.
Thanks


it seems that practically every single thread in the forum makes reference to how blitzkrieg tactics dont work anymore, that the enemy is overpowered and that your own forces (most cases say german forces) are too weak to do anything else other than attack heavily defended positions. also i read somewhere about someone saying that tanks are "worthless". lets look a bit deeper into this.
[...]
in conclusion, a breakthrough in the game is indeed very possible, but you have to know how to do it first in order to achieve it.
 
Hello Eugenioso,
Nice to meet you.

I have played HOI in different forms for many years. I recently bought Darkest Hour, and wish to convey that I find your post (written years ago :) ) well written and a valueable read.
Thanks
eyyy My man. Well, while im here, chech my twitch out i guess:
https://www.twitch.tv/sopamanxx

Much love
 
Hello Eugenioso,
Nice to meet you.

I have played HOI in different forms for many years. I recently bought Darkest Hour, and wish to convey that I find your post (written years ago :) ) well written and a valueable read.
Thanks

Adding to the valuable operational explanations of Eugenioso I'd also like to point out that, while the AI has gotten smarter (and thanks a lot for that!), the speed of some units have increased a lot in DH, especially ARM and the now superfast MOT. This again supports Blitzkrieg and Deep Operations massively.

As many helpful tips there are, I must admit, that it took me quite some time to master the in and outs of Blitzkrieg and Deep Operation tactics. I read up on examples given here and in the wiki and combined it with historical data, especially how the German army was organized and led. The latter with a focus on the difference between Polish, French, Russian armies (or basically in almost all other) on the one hand and the Wehrmacht on the other hand. The IMHO most important differences on the Wehrmacht side were:
# defeat in WWI: The winners usually do not but the loosers might sit down and try to analyse why they had lost. The commanding general v. Seekt of the Reichswehr (German army during the Weimar Republic) did exactly this, in the early 20ies he ordered his staff officers into dozens of groups to analyse and understand the failure and to develop new concepts for the coming war (of which those extremely right winged officers were convinced).
# high standard and tradition of tactical/operational schooling and skill
# this again allowed leading by task (instead of orders from far away HQ)
# together with leading from the front (which is the reason why around 600 German generals were killed in WW2... everything has its price)

This allowed and led to very effective usage of doctrines and different organisational elements like (to name a few):
# Panzerdivisions
# new concepts of combined warfare which especially integrated the usage of airforce as flying tactical artillery (combined warfare of infantry, cavalry and artillery are definetly much older, just look at Napoleon or even the old Romans).
# "Stillstand is Verteidigung, Bewegung ist Angriff" (Guderian) which can be somehow translated into "Standing still leads to defense, mobility to successful attacks" which was THE analysis of the German staff officers how to overcome the strong defensive abilities of a modern army as seen in WW1. Which means if you want to conquere, as soon as you stand still and allow the enemy to organise a defense, you have lost.

Now, in my experience, all the helpful tips on how to successfully wage Blitzkrieg get you only to a certain point, the rest is experience and the ability to react very flexibly to every situation at hand. For the Wehrmacht this was possible due to their doctrine of leading from the front plus the other mentioned points above (and certainly several more).
Basically you can imagine a Guderian or Rommel as speed junkies sitting on top of their specially built command panzers and reacting to situations immediatly with orders to their units or calling in the airforce. This leads us to another very important piece of equipment the Wehrmacht used much more and better than all the other armies:
# radio transmitters !!!
It weren't the Panzers or any fabulous Wunderwaffe which made the Wehrmacht so much more effective in the early phase of WWII but this small additional equipment of 2-way-radio transmitters. As a matter of fact the French alone had a lot more and better tanks than the Germans and the British Expeditionary Force was probably the best equipped and professional army of the world. But to what avail is the best tank if you can't tell him where the enemy is? While most of the German panzers in early WW2 were rather puny cans not equipped with a cannon but just a MG, they got the information about the sighting of a heavy French tank rightaway together with orders to avoid and to leave it to the mobile artillery or tactical bombers of the Luftwaffe.

Translated into DH this means:
# Your Panzers and MOT are probably better than the historical ones *grin* although you'll feel like never having enough which again is very historical.
# Pause the game, look at the map and plan your war very carefully (before you start it). This includes a whole plan on how to win the war as much as micro-planning especially the first few days.
# Hesitate to change that plan(s) once the action begins but at the same time don't shy away from reacting flexibly when necessary, usually when things don't go like planned or you see "possibilities"=new information are available (due to airforce intel or whatever) and try to exploit them (leading from the front and 2-way-radios).
# Mobility and speed is essential. NEVER equip your Panzer or MOTs with any brigade that might reduce their speed, regardless of how strong or cool this makes your units.
# Use your ARM and MOT tactically correct: Not as infantry support nor as your "best" units. Their main distinguishing feature is speed, don't waste them for other purposes.
# Artillery brigades might be a nice addition for infantry but mostly they aren't, neither economically IC-wise nor in manpower. At some point in a (successfull) war your mobile forces will have outrun your infantry, don't make your infantry even slower. Instead use inf+art, or with any brigade that slows down, tactically for special purposes, stationary defense or bottlenecks.
# All this talk about MOTs and ARMs is a bit misleading, while they are tactically very important units, your infantry remains the main fighting force to do the actual battles.
# Do not attack if you can't heap all the possible advantages like attacks from several sides, air support, vast superiority in numbers, best leaders etc. If you find yourself intending to attack without all this advantages, stop and think hard wether you REALLY need to do this and wether attacking somewhere else isn't better or wether it wouldn't be better and possible to just wait a bit longer until you have all the right units in position to achieve your multi-advantages. Otherwise attrition of strength and organisation will let you fail, perhaps not in the short run to win the battle but certainly in the long run to win the war.
# If you get attacked, the standard Wehrmacht answere was a local counter attack. Too difficult for the AI to master but you should try to learn and to apply it. After all later in the war it became a standard also for the allies (if they had skilled enough commanders).
# Use your tactical bombers tactically correct as flying artillery to support your breakthroughs. If they have still enough organisation, you may also use them to support other battles. To use your tactical bombers alone (and not in a combined warfare) is a luxury you most probably can't afford before the war is basically won and some mopping up needs still to be done.
# Blitzkrieg means "ground support" over "ground attack" for tactical bombers, breaking morale or organisation to win the battle is prime, destroying the enemy units is best done by encirclement or overrun tactics and not by your precious planes.
# Enemy planes are usually not destroyed in the air (partly this is DH and HoI specific, partly this is even historical) but mainly on the ground. If your plan allows it (or even better it should be part of your invasion plan), mark those enemy airfields and give them priority to get conquered to destroy their planes (you don't necessarily need to hold those regions for long except you need the airfiled for your own air force).

# Be bold! And remember: Standing still is defense is defeat. Keep your enemy surprised, in disarray and don't allow him to reorganise (in DH terms literally).

The DH AI makes a much better job preventing breakthroughs and gets madly offensive in case of encirclement (great work btw). What I found very helpful to counter this: Mixing Blitzkrieg tactics of breakthroughs and encirclements with Deep Operation tactics of the Red Army. In DH this can be translated into overruning the opponent's divisions when they retreat, await them at their destination and thus destroy them. Due to the speed increase of MOT and ARM in DH this has become easier.

And what needs to be said, before glorifying the abilites of the Wehrmacht too much: The original plan of the Wehrmacht to attack France was the Schlieffen plan, same stupid approach that had so utterly failed in WWI. And if there had not been several unexpected unlucky events which then again triggered some absolutely unforseeable events and the implementation of Manstein's/Guderian's Blitzkrieg, they would had indeed used that plan and I think we are safe to assess that the Schlieffen plan would had failed even more horribly than the first time. The result: no famous Westfeldzug, no WW2 at all but just a historical note of an unbelievable stupid attack which failed. And nobody would had assumed that the world had just avoided a war so much worse than was imaginable at that time.
 
Last edited:
Yes, overrun attacks are very useful in DH. Having a few airborne divisions can help in this case as well, since you can instantly capture the province which the enemy is retreating to (if it's undefended of course). If I'm not mistaken this is also done without destroying the infrastructure too much, meaning that you can quickly rush in armor and motorized divisions to secure the area even further (and create a leaping point for further advance behind enemy lines). Kind of what Operation Market Garden aimed to do, capture the infrastructure intact and let the armor rush forward at high speed, although the overarching objective was not an overrun attack in that case ;)
 
Hello Altruist,
Great to interact with you at the forum.
This is to say that I have read your new post and found it a grand read too.

It seems from your words that we are interested in similar topics here. That is, the game as well as the historical strategies and tactics of WWII. I know e.g. about the original plan - and how it was altered to Manstein's plan; but not that the Germans' utilization of the radio was a in my words CSF (Critical Success Factor).

Brilliant historical information from you, in conjunction with the DH info! Appreciate it. :)

I will re-read your and Eugenioso's OP words tomorrow (and may write a few follow up questions). This is a valuable thread still going strong. :)

Cheers

Hello Eugenioso,

Nice to meet you.

I have played HOI in different forms for many years. I recently bought Darkest Hour, and wish to convey that I find your post (written years ago :) ) well written and a valueable read.


Thanks

eyyy My man. Well, while im here, chech my twitch out i guess:
https://www.twitch.tv/sopamanxx

Much love
Adding to the valuable operational explanations of Eugenioso I'd also like to point out that, while the AI has gotten smarter (and thanks a lot for that!), the speed of some units have increased a lot in DH, especially ARM and the now superfast MOT. This again supports Blitzkrieg and Deep Operations massively. [...]
 
Hello Everyone,
Based on the OP I have a question:

I am a gamer and aviator, and I have recently begun to play particularly the brilliant Darkest Hour. :)

My question is how do we protect the enemies' airfields during e.g. Blitzkrieg, before we capture them?

I played DH recently as Germany vs Poland and was a little "astonished" when I found that all of Poland's airstrips were in very bad condition afterwards - when I wanted to continue in to the Soviet union. I had not utilized the "Runway Cratering Mission".

(1) Is there a direct way, order, in DH to protect enemy airfields before you capture the province? Or must you work indirectly? For example by letting you ground troups capture the airfield's province without air support.

(2) Do the command Ground support and/or Ground attack (which are what I utilized now) destroy more than divisions?

Thank you in advance! :)
 
...My question is how do we protect the enemies' airfields during e.g. Blitzkrieg, before we capture them?

I played DH recently as Germany vs Poland and was a little "astonished" when I found that all of Poland's airstrips were in very bad condition afterwards - when I wanted to continue in to the Soviet union. I had not utilized the "Runway Cratering Mission".

(1) Is there a direct way, order, in DH to protect enemy airfields before you capture the province? Or must you work indirectly? For example by letting you ground troups capture the airfield's province without air support.

Airfields and naval bases get, whenever somebody conqueres the region, set to zero. The manual calls it "sabotage by the leaving troops". They will slowly regain "health". The speed of this depends on the level of the infrastructure in the region.

Infrastructure of a region gets halved by every conquest and then regains "health" similar to above depending on the level of the still functioning infrastructure.

So there is no direct way how you can save airfields, naval bases or infrastructure from getting into "bad shape".

But there are some things you can do to make things not even worse:
# Use strategic bombings either not at all if you are conquering and want to "use" the region afterwards or wisely if you are in need of the additional advantage against the defending troops. Lower infrastructure loweres ESE (effective supply efficiency) which is a direct multiplyer to the battle strength of the units. For in depth info:
https://hoi2.paradoxwikis.com/Transport_Capacity_and_Supply_Efficiency_FAQ
But after conquest of the region the same or rather then even worse malus is also applied to your units.

# The effect of the halved infrastructure happens at each conquest. So if you ping pong a region, conquere-loose-conquere, even a 100% infra region has gone down to 50%-25%-12.5% and movement, rebuilding of airstripes, naval bases takes an eternity. This can be also used as a tactic to establish a barrier between you and the opponent: Whoever enters such a region will have a severly diminished fighting power.
But if you are on a conquering spray and want to make usage of this region asap, you should avoid it. So it made complete sense for the Luftwaffe not to have strategic but only tactical bombers.

# Runway Cratering Mission: I found them quite interesting... in the beginning. Then I realized that to successfully do it you need air supremacy (=fighter or interceptors) AND bombers. Much more efficient just to let your fighter/int do their job without runway cratering missions (especially if you were able to build more of them due to leaving out TAC/STRAT). As usual there are some exceptions but in general I do not use it anylonger.

Addtional info for the "aviator":
# 0%-air bases: You can still use them, though. Your planes won't regain any org nor will they get repaired. But you can land and take off. And when you have already gained air supremacy, I find myself using them quite often (better than nothing). But make sure to rebase your damaged planes to some safe and good infra air bases if they are really in need of repair and reorg (if the org is near zero, the loss due to rebase doesn't matter anyway). So if you know you want to attack France rightaway after Poland, it is an option to rebase them directly all the way to the west (for Poland they will be out of action anyway).

# air bases: Usually I have at least 4 air bases parallel in a long serial run in the production queue. For a successful combined warfare which makes best usage of your planes, you need quite a lot air bases in the right regions. Additionally they give a good bonus (15%?) in airfights in adjascent regions. I also try to build up infra to 100% in all main air base regions along the eastern and western border until 1939 when playing "The Third Reich".
Defending intercepters are usually stationed in regions not directly at the border but 1 region behind. With air scramble they then give quite good cover and usually attack enemy planes above own regions (with near base bonus, supported by own static anti air instead of the other way around).
Offensive CAS and INT/FIG are stationed as close as possible to the future battle regions. The new feature to hover over the map to see the distances between regions helps a lot to choose the right regions when planning it.

# side-effects of static AA: The AI is smart enough to try to plot a path that avoids most of the static AA. Well, we are even smarter, so before the enemy bombers fly over the Baltic Sea and suddenly bomb your hinterland, you can try to design a tunnel with low or no static AA that ends where 2 of your airports with air scramble interceports overlap. If you want to lure them even more, place an HQ as bait.
If you ever wondered how the heck those enemy bombers could get to your ports bombing them while avoiding all your regions with AA by flying in wide curves over the sea and thinking: "That's by far more than they have fuel for ." Yes, your planes can do the same. Distance for planes is, whyever, measured by the direct fly-distance between start and destination... but allows them then to plot a path avoiding all dangerous obstacles without taking their distance restrictions into account. And for AI-planes not the starting air base is taken for measuring distance but the nearest allied air base. So better make sure to protect your ports and most valuable regions.

(2) Do the command Ground support and/or Ground attack (which are what I utilized now) destroy more than divisions?

Ground attack: aims primarily at lowering strength of the attacked units, a bit of org is also targetted. If those units are fully dug in, the damage done is near zero. Probably best used like the light cavalry of old: against the retreating enemy to make a defeat to a total defeat. Or against special targets like the HQs, MOTs, ARMs which are moving around in small numbers without infantry support.

Ground support: aims primarily at lowering organisation of the attacked units, a bit of strength is also targetted . The best time to order your CAS or TAC to do this is in the first hour after a land battle has started. Usually your planes give priority to battles. If they get the order before any battle happens, they might attack a different region (you can call off the order but first they fly back to their airport and only then to the battle where you want to have them).

I have never really tested it with a true comparison but I am fairly convinced that the lowered org of ground support has quite a bigger impact on battles than the lowered str by ground attack. Since battles are usually not decided by completly destroyed units but by low organisation, I prefer ground support over ground attack, it really speeds battles up and saves the org of your own units.

Other than that I don't think that those attack types destroy or damage anything else.

Thank you in advance! :)
You are welcome.

edit: typos
 
Last edited:
Hello again Altruist,
Let me shake your hand peer, in historical strategies and tactics during WWII and the Darkest Hour, as a token of appreciation concerning the post.

Even if I have played HoI and more for many years, I've found several items, which were very learnable in your post and I didn't know before regarding DH. (Like the behavior of the algorithm "halved infrastructure happens at each conquest".)

Additionally FYI: I also agree with you about the "Runway Cratering Mission". I have never ordered this mission. I reckon it may also be the aviator in me, who sees airfields both as something sacred :) as well as vital later on.

Will re-read your post again tomorrow, as I always do when I have found a good article.

Based on thoughts regarding a parallel thread here. There are forum peers with multi-competence and genuine teaching interests, like yourself and Eugeniosa, who make it worthwhile coming here for a dialogue, for me. In return I'll provide you both with the following from my research "90–9–1 principle". Hope you find it interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%_rule_(Internet_culture)

Cheers! :)
Airfields and naval bases get, whenever somebody conqueres the region, set to zero. The manual calls it "sabotage by the leaving troops". They will slowly regain "health". The speed of this depends on the level of the infrastructure in the region.

Infrastructure of a region gets halved by every conquest and then regains "health" similar to above depending on the level of the still functioning infrastructure.

So there is no direct way how you can save airfields, naval bases or infrastructure from getting into "bad shape".
[...]
You are welcome.
- Tagged Eugenioso OP-writer for information about a well initiated thread. :)
 
Hello Altruist and everyone, :)
I have read the threads again as I said I would, and I have the following follow up questions on the first of yours:
[...] I must admit, that it took me quite some time to master the in and outs of Blitzkrieg and Deep Operation tactics. I read up on examples given here and in the wiki and combined it with historical data"
(i) Since you stated that you read up (research is one of my methods too) and you mention them both, what practical distinction do you make between "Deep Operation tactics" and "Blitzkrieg"? And what are the implications regarding the former for Darkest Hour play? (The thread has talked about Blitzkrieg already, of course).

"Translated into DH this means:
[...]
# Blitzkrieg means "interdiction" over "ground support" for tactical bombers, breaking morale or organisation to win the battle is prime"
(ii) In connection with DH game play you state "interdiction" for TACs above. I know about the concept in HoI3. However, looking deep and hard for the term and its utilization in DH, I have not found anything, yet. Are you able to elaborate, please?

I am interested to learn what you and others have to say about these two items.

Thank you! :)
 
(i) Since you stated that you read up (research is one of my methods too) and you mention them both, what practical distinction do you make between "Deep Operation tactics" and "Blitzkrieg"? And what are the implications regarding the former for Darkest Hour play? (The thread has talked about Blitzkrieg already, of course).

# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_operation
The great offense of the Red Army in 1944 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration) which resulted in the total destruction of the Wehrmacht's Heeresgruppe Mitte (Army Group Centre) was an example of Deep Operation tactics and what the Red Army could had been an enemy right from the beginning if Stalin hadn't "purged" most of his generals and marshals right before WW2.:
# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge#Purge_of_the_army
After those purges the Red Army was still the best equipped army to do mobile warfare but lacked any officers who knew how to. No army can do Blitzkrieg or Deep Operations tactics without skilled, motivated, self confident and empowered (leading by task) officers. And thus, at the end of 1941, after defeat and defeat, they had lost most of their (best) equipment and basically all the armies stationed along the western front (west as seen from the Red Army).

I found it much easier to read up on Blitzkrieg than on the Red Army's Deep Operations tactics. By this I mean reading stuff that really explains on an operational level how it is done. And that after also reading the book "When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler" by David Glantz.

My best explanation would be (without guarantee that I grasped it correctly):
# Wehrmacht Blitzkrieg: Have a good solid block (usually infantry), try breakthroughs at the flanks or where possible, move thru with armored spearheads to encircle the enemy and hope for neither enemy reserves in the back nor counter attacks into the logistical flank of your spearheads.
A good choice if you have only a few mobile and/or armored units and the rest of the army uses horses or walks.

# Red Army Deep operations: You amass quite an overwhelming force locally. To do so, the Red Army used maskirovka (deception and camouflage) and the Wehrmacht usually fell for it, neither seeing the amassed forces nor the strongly weakened frontlines elsewhere. With this superiority you attack locally to achieve breakthroughs, go thru en mass and overrun not only the front but also the fall back positions, then using this advantage to bring the enemy into total disarray by going as far as supply and logistics allow, then searching for strategic positions to hold and stop there. In practice it seems to be done in a kind of cascade of different specialized units: breakthrough with very heavy artillery support, securing the breakthrough, mobile fast forces going thru and trying to get as far as possible while others spread out behind the direct front.
This tactic basically needs a complete or near complete mobile army and not only mobile spearheads. In 1944 the Red Army had fully and more replaced their early losses and was (again) a mobile army.

As successfully as the Red Army applied it in 1944, I got the impression that deep operation tactics are even more difficult than blitzkrieg tactics. It took the Red Army 3 years to relearn it. Only 1.5 years to master Blitzkrieg tactics and to apply them (Stalingrad).
It might be, though, that Deep Operation tactics, when skillfully done, are less vulnerable to counter attacks than the spearheads.

Which I translated into DH in an only very simple way as described above:
Altruist: said:
Deep Operation tactics of the Red Army. In DH this can be translated into overruning the opponent's divisions when they retreat, await them at their destination and thus destroy them.

I especially like the Worlds in Flames Mod for DH and there encircled armies get, if I recall correctly, a 15% battle bonus. So I found myself using more and more overruning tactics, with the help of my mobile infantry, armored units and the occasional paratroopers, by reaching the fall back or retreat positions of beaten divisions before them. You have to modify it even further when the opponent applies a defense in depth (2 regions deep).

Just to mention it (it took me quite a while to find this precious little information): Before the battle starts it is possible to order your units not only into 1 region but with mouse right click (correction: shift right click) you can specify one or several further regions to rightaway continue into after the battle (which gets rid of the 24h waiting time before orders can be given after battles). So you attack a region or make your standard breakthrough attack but order your faster units to move further and if necessary to spread out into several possible retreat regions behind. One really needs to watch this because things can, of course, develop quite differently than you assumed before the battle and/or you suddenly find additional reserves of the enemy in behind positions (but you can always cancel move orders).

(ii) In connection with DH game play you state "interdiction" for TACs above. I know about the concept in HoI3. However, looking deep and hard for the term and its utilization in DH, I have not found anything, yet. Are you able to elaborate, please?

Uups, sorry. What I meant was, of course:
# Blitzkrieg means "ground support" over "ground attack" for tactical bombers...
I corrected it also in my previous post.
You are, indeed, carefully reading.

To be honest, in my last game I did use ground attack: I got 3 TAC from an ally which were old enough models that it wasn't wise to use them along any frontier in Europe. So I sent them to West, Central and South Africa. And they did a brilliant job. There is nothing more annoying than your ground units needing 6 weeks to go from one region to the next (horrible infra). To make it worse the British landed troops from India along Eastern Africa and used Strat Redeploy to bring them, mostly in single units, to wherever unexpected regions in all Africa. You can beat them but then they just retreat to another region (AI bonus: gaining orga while moving). A never ending ping pong... but with so much time at hand it didn't matter that the TACs took a dozen or more flights to erase a single unit with ground attack orders. The perfect order for a special situation.
 
Last edited:
Just to mention it (it took me quite a while to find this precious little information): Before the battle starts it is possible to order your units not only into 1 region but with mouse right click you can specify one or several further regions to rightaway continue into after the battle (which gets rid of the 24h waiting time before orders can be given after battles). So you attack a region or make your standard breakthrough attack but order your faster units to move further and if necessary to spread out into several possible retreat regions behind. One really needs to watch this because things can, of course, develop quite differently than you assumed before the battle and/or you suddenly find additional reserves of the enemy in behind positions (but you can always cancel move orders).

Sorry, small but important correction (as soon as I don't play DH for a month I tend to forget some crucial things):
Not right-click but shift-right-click is the way to give a selected unit a specific path it will follow instead of the automatically chosen part if you just right click onto a region. So if you attack from 3 regions and a total of 24 units, you can give especially your faster units (before the battle starts) orders to move to specific regions beyond the battle region. And thru this you can try to cover all the possible retreat regions of the the defeated enemy units.
If your units reach those retreat regions before the enemy, all incoming retreating units get automatically destroyed.

If the enemy is having a defense in depth eg. 2 regions deep to prevent exactly this, you can try to counter it by giving not only your mobile units such orders but also to supporting infantry units. So some of your inf units are just sent into the battle regions, the mobile units get orders to move on to the possible retreat zones beyond the battle zone and some of your infantry are to follow. Usually this will result in secondary battles in the "retreat zones" covered by the enemy defense in depth in which at first only your fastest units take part but get support by the slower moving infantry as soon as they reach the initial combat zone and move on. While sometimes the secondary battles will take too long (the retreating enemy units reach their fall back positions before the battle there is decided and thus get not automatically destroyed) often enough this works. Even if it fails at the first retreat position, you might have been guessing well enough to have ordered your units to even move on to the next possbile retreat positions and try it again.
As already hinted at above, this needs quite careful watching because with each region you move further, the number of possible retreat regions become more, more things can go amiss and you might need to stop your advancing units if they get into the danger of advancing too far with the ever higher risk of getting cut off themselves.
Additionally/alternatively, if the distance between regions is large enough, your units might be on the move for longer than 24h... so they accept new orders again which allows you to change their secondary or tertiary destination: just shift-right-click onto the region they are already moving to (thus not loosing any already done movement) and then select a different region as the next target.

A big successful offensive done in this way can result in a total overrun of the defending forces and their complete extermination (and then you have achieved something similar to the above mentioned Red Army's Deep Operation tactics in Operation Bagration). It works faster than the usual blitzkrieg tactics of encirclement, your forces keep better contact and support with each other because basically your whole front is advancing and not only your spearheads and you avoid altogether the last step of eliminating the Kessel (encircled units).
Obviously it works better the more mobile units you have and best against an enemy with only a few or none mobile units (at least in the area you are doing it which again explains the importance of deception). The deception part is difficult to simulate in DH, the best approximation would be to "fix enemy mobile units" by a deceptive attack as described by Eugenioso in the first post of this thread:
[...] allow me to take the example of the manstein plan: instead of doing what the french expected, a simple attack through belgium, the germans began to push north, into netherlands, making the french think that it was a repetition of the schieff... schilf... the shiffsomething plan. they sent their forces north, and then the panzers attacked through the ardennes. the key to achieving a breakthrough there was attacking a sector and waiting for the enemy to reinforce it. when they did, and subsequently weakened other sectors, they opened themselves for an attack and breach through.

ingame, it is basically the same, following all the principles of the blitzkrieg: first, attack a sector or two. nothing particularly strong, but to draw enemy forces there, thereby weakening other sectors. then, strike.

Additional notes:
As you can see already from me trying to explain it, how lengthy I got (while not being sure I was really able to get my points thru), deep operation tactics are not easy. It might be good to learn them by exercise, take one part of the front, try to apply it, if you fail and start insulting yourself about having made the wrong/stupid decisions, reload and try it again to master it. The Red Army, not able to reload, made horrible mistakes trying to (re-)master their own previously developed doctrines and tactics and without the ability to "reload" paid for their learning mistakes in blood.

One prime mistake they did over and over again was trying to achieve too much with one offense... which actually went right against one of the insights of their brilliant strategist Tukhachevsky who thought that modern warfare usually won't be able to achieve everything in one big offensive but that it would need successive waves of offenses building upon each other.

Further reading (limited to wikipedia... but sometimes one gets the impression that half of the wikipedia is about military):
# Deep Operation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_operation
# Mikhail Tukhachevsky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Tukhachevsky
# Operation Bagration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration
# Maskirovka - Russian military deception: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_deception
# Defence in depth / elastic defence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_in_depth
# The Great Purge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge#Purge_of_the_army

Book:
# David Glantz: When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler (make sure to get the 2nd edition)
=> this book tries to use Soviet and Russian sources to shed some light upon what really happened, contrary to an astonishing big part of that history in the West (many of us grew up with) which was written by the loosers, the German Generals who had some "funny" explanations for their failure if they wrote about that at all. You know.... winter, mud, the crazy Führer, all those hordes coming from seemingly nowhere... the latter especially strong ported into DH.
 
Last edited:
[...] which resulted in the total destruction of the Wehrmacht's Heeresgruppe Mitte (Army Group Centre) was an example of Deep Operation tactics and what the Red Army could had been an enemy right from the beginning if Stalin hadn't "purged" most of his generals and marshals right before WW2. [...]

Hello Altruist,
A message to convey the following - and to show in practice that I respect our ongoing dialogue here. :)

This is to say that I value the teamwork. This is also to let you know that your post, Sunday morning, triggered several events of research here.

To me it seems that we both share the same combined interest regarding two topics (at least). The Darkest Hour simulations, as well as the historical strategies and tactics of WWII. Am I correct?

I know "plenty" regarding these two subjects. And I, at the same time know that there is still more valuable items to research, learn and use in practice.

Your Sunday morning post triggered several events (which is a compliment to your writing). Sunday evening (... and night :D ) based on your post, I got inspired; decided and began to dig deeper into even more strategical and tactical areas of the East front in WWII. More about that later perhaps. I know about several operations of course. Like the turn at Stalingrad, deep defense at Kursk, etc.

You introduced me to the "exciting" concept of Soviet Deep Operations. I did not know about this technique before. - Many thanks! What your posts did and do, is that I will now look deeper into e.g. the East front; strategical, tactical and operative levels.

I began yesterday evening to write a reply with my reflections (to your post Sunday morning). It ended up too long, and I decided that I will review it before I post it here. I also needed some nightly sleep. :D

So as a token that I value the dialogue, I write the above for your information. I will finish my post to your now second latest post. And then take a deeper look at today's post. Hope that this information, to keep you in the loop, is valuable for you to learn about.

All the best from Scandinavia!
 
Last edited:
Hello Altruist,
I message to convey the following - and to show in practice that I respect our ongoing dialogue here.

Good to hear after my wall of text.

To me it seems that we both share the same combined interest regarding two topics (at least). The Darkest Hour simulations, as well as the historical strategies and tactics of WWII. Am I correct?

Seems obviously and nerdishingl correct.

I know "plenty" regarding these two subjects.

Shoot on...
 
Hello Altruist and everyone,
Since we are exploring the area of the Darkest Hour and the historical operations as a teamwork, I wish to inform you in order to keep you in the loop. Hope you like it.

I have, based on your list of hot tips as well as own research, found and read a multitude of tactical articles on Wikipedia. For example your proposition regarding "Mikhail Tukhachevsky" which was new to me. Interesting connection to tactics and more - as well as to Stalin to say the least. Appreciate your continual hot tips!

And I am now continuing my reading including reflections.

Since we both favour the combined approach of WW2, theory and practical simulations in Darkest Hour, I would be glad to have a mutual dialogue with you regarding the following, please:

We talked about reusing airfields in Darkest Hour after capturing provinces!

Airfields and naval bases get, whenever somebody conqueres the region, set to zero. The manual calls it "sabotage by the leaving troops". They will slowly regain "health". The speed of this depends on the level of the infrastructure in the region.

So there is no direct way how you can save airfields, naval bases or infrastructure from getting into "bad shape".
[...]
Addtional info for the "aviator":
# 0%-air bases: You can still use them, though. Your planes won't regain any org nor will they get repaired. But you can land and take off. And when you have already gained air supremacy, I find myself using them quite often (better than nothing).

1a) The true aviator and gamer in me have read and contemplated your words above about reusing broken airfields after e.g. Poland's provinces have been captured.

The aviator part of me says that during real life flying, there will be a risk for shortage of fuel on the airstrips, since they have been heavily destroyed during Germany vs. Poland campaign! - And obviously aircrafts need more fuel to expand their total flying distance. :)

However, let us focus on how the Darkest Hour views it (and maybe there is a truck full of fuel at the airfield, still!!) How does the game generally model this, I wonder? Does or doesn't this game model fuel? Or is it just "Strength and Organization" which matters here, and which you can obtain from your previous healthy background bases (according to your suggested scenario above)? What is your experience, how does the act work in the simulation?

1b) When you utilize it: How does your method work in practice?

Example if I would use your suggested method, right away, I may try out, first gaining Strength and Organization at a healthy background base!

Then, I view at least two scenarios.
Either, start at the healty background airfield; then rebase to the captured broken airstrip in Poland; then commence and continue your air mission (e.g. Air superiority or Ground support) until getting to a critical low level of Strength or Organization; finally Rebase and return to a healthy airbase, to regain Strength and Organization! (Repeat this method when necessary.)

Or: Fly continually to and fro: Heathy background airfield -> Rebase to broken airfield in Poland -> Provide order Mission (e.g. Ground support) and fly -> Rebase mission, to fly back continually to a healthy background airfield, before you have lost any/too much Strength and Organisation. Then perform the same procedure once again. (Time consuming and micro-management.)

These are two practical implementations I have thought of, based on your idea above regarding as Germany reusing broken airfields in Poland! (There may be other methods as well.)

What implementation(s) do you use for your suggested idea of reusing captured and broken enemy airfields when simulating Germany conquering Poland - and you wish to conquer the Soviet Union afterwards - as soon as possible?

1c) Background: When you suggested this idea, does it or does it not mean that the DH game model and calculate with Fuel in this situation? Or does DH only use Strength and Organization? Do you know?

1d) What is your Darkest Hour experience regarding this: Would the method make it possible, playing Germany, to successfully conquer the Soviet Union directly/shortly after winning over Poland? (Skipping the historical Battle of France in between of course? :) )
# air bases: Usually I have at least 4 air bases parallel in a long serial run in the production queue.

You are welcome.

2) In conclusion, final question on airbases. I am well familiar with ordering items in parallel in the production queue. However, to able to use your advice, I don't grasp "in a long serial run"!

Do you mean like at least 4 air bases in parallel - then the same order after a time interval, one set only of 4 air bases in parallel in the queue, or something else? Please exemplify.

Have a grand Sunday! Thanks
 
Last edited:
I'll try to answere each questions with an own post...
1a) [...] reusing broken airfields after e.g. Poland's provinces have been captured.

The aviator part of me says that during real life flying, there will be a risk for shortage of fuel on the airstrips, since they have been heavily destroyed during Germany vs. Poland campaign! - And obviously aircrafts need more fuel to expand their total flying distance. :)

However, let us focus on how the Darkest Hour views it (and maybe there is a truck full of fuel at the airfield, still!!) How does the game generally model this, I wonder? Does or doesn't this game model fuel? Or is it just "Strength and Organization" which matters here, and which you can obtain from your previous healthy background bases (according to your suggested scenario above)? What is your experience, how does the act work in the simulation?

Fuel and supplies:
DH and HoI apply the same logic to fuel and supplies for planes as they do for land units. This means as long as there is an unbroken connection to your capital or your next depot with enough fuel and supplies (via convoys), your units are "in supply". For an easy overview, you can view the "supply mapmode". Additionally all usage of fuel, supplies, strat.redeployments etc. add to your Transport Capacity (TC) which abstracts the whole logistics. If your used TC gets higher than your logistical abilities, all units move slower and fight worse because they are not sufficiently supplied anylonger.

Naturally this is an abstraction by the game but IMHO a rather good one.
Back to conquered airfields which you took over with your land units, those come with a supply line or they couldn't move. This is in game as much as in real life: If your panzers get fuel, it seems logical that those supply lines can also bring in fuel for your planes.

Destroyed airfields or in poor shape:
We are not talking about the sophisticated warplanes of today which need very good, solid and long airstrips, although even today every army has at least a few types of planes, especially transports, that can use very rough airstrips. Back then especially the planes of the Luftwaffe were designed to be quite robust to enable them to start and land from very rough territory. Look at the CAS, the famous Stuka with its funny outstanding wheels: in terms of aerodynamics a nightmare but very robust and needed no more than a strip of grass freed of stones and holes for landing/starting. Due to the low range of most Luftwaffe planes this was necessary since they needed to be repeatedly rebased to keep in range to the (perhaps) fast advancing front lines. Repairing airfields was done rather fast, setting up simple meadows as improvised airstrips done quite often.

So, in general, I'd say the abstractions and implementations in DH and HoI fit the historical reality better than your above mentioned reservations (as much as they are probably true for eg NATO planes and needs of today).
 
Recently I have played the mod World in Flames. For this discussion I think not much changes due to this. But if some things I am talking about are different or not available in full DH, this is probably the reason... it all mingles together in my head.
1b) When you utilize it [damaged air fields]: How does your method work in practice?

Example if I would use your suggested method, right away, I may try out, first gaining Strength and Organization at a healthy background base!

Then, I view at least two scenarios.
Either, start at the healty background airfield; then rebase to the captured broken airstrip in Poland; then commence and continue your air mission (e.g. Air superiority or Ground support) until getting to a critical low level of Strength or Organization; finally Rebase and return to a healthy airbase, to regain Strength and Organization! (Repeat this method when necessary.)

Or: Fly continually to and fro: Heathy background airfield -> Rebase to broken airfield in Poland -> Provide order Mission (e.g. Ground support) and fly -> Rebase mission, to fly back continually to a healthy background airfield, before you have lost any/too much Strength and Organisation. Then perform the same procedure once again. (Time consuming and micro-management.)

Well, obviously using damaged air fields is suboptimal and should be avoided but can be, under certain conditions, necessary and helpful. But to correctly answere your question, I feel I first need to address how to avoid it and what those conditions are.

1) Try to avoid using air bases which are not optimal.
Air bases should be of sufficent size, 100% health and in a 100% infrastructure region. At least in your initial wars for which you have time to prepare this should be true.

2) Obviously when starting a war, all your planes should be not only based at the best spot but also in full strength and organisation.

3) Before you place your air bases you should already have a plan how to conquere what you want to conquere.
The how involves the battles which need to be done to get to the regions you really need to conquere: those with the victory points... no more, no less. After you have a pretty good idea where this battles will occure and where you need air support then comes what I'd call the mouse hover session over those various regions to find the best spots for your air bases in dependence of the range of your used planes. For example Breslau turned out a very good spot for an air base vs Poland (wouldn't had thought so just from looking at the map).
For countries like Poland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, partly France, you might be able to cover almost all needed regions with those placed starting air bases.

4) Be as efficient with your units' strength and organisation as possible.
While this is true for all your units, depleted str or org for your air units is probably the worst because you loose the usage of a whole branch of your military. We are talking about Blitzkrieg scenarios which will only range from one to several weeks. Once one of your planes is down or near to zero org, most likely it is out of action for the whole war.
You are fighting the combined air forces of Poland, France and the UK plus what the Commonwealth sends to support the UK. The Luftwaffe needs to defend along all borders AND trying to support the invasion of Poland and finds itself heavily outnumbered. So you need every possible advantage and can't afford recklessness.
# Defend over own ground to make the best usage of your static AA, radar and air base bonus.
# Minimize time in the air by using air scramble and by this maximising reorganisation.
# Try to have all planes including the offensive ones down at your air bases at midnight to allow for strength recovery/repair.
# Read and apply: https://hoi2.paradoxwikis.com/Reinforcements,_Reorganization_and_Bases#Air_units (for HoI but I think it is either the same or at least following the same logic in DH full)
# Minimize offensive actions to the absolute necessary because you are flying over enemy territory, their static AA and air bases and 1:1 you'll most likely loose air fights or at best win but with a too high attrition to your str and org than you can really afford... nevertheless you need to cover somehow your offensive CAS either by using air superiority over the area your CAS is ordered to or by manually sending them when you see enemy planes starting. In any case, try to get your planes back to your bases for midnight (not always possible but often).

5) You might still encounter good old Clausewitz: "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy" or you have done a planning mistake (rest assured every plan has mistakes or things which were overlooked but to win you must make less mistakes than your enemy)... when having succeeded in preserving as much str and org of your units as possible, now it might be needed and possible to use recently conquered air bases with near zero health to also get the last things done to finish your campaign.
For Poland, with very careful planning, it might not be necessary, nor for the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, in France there is no way around it in the last stages, vs the UK, Sweden, Norway, Finland the same and vs Russia... well, that's a completly different story.

6) Rebase distance wise in approbiate steps.
Rebase always costs a certain minimum org. But rebasing to an air base further away than the range of the plane costs additional org. Mostly it is more efficient to rebase in steps via one or several other air bases. Exception from this rule: When your plane has lost all org already.
If you rebase to a near zero health air base, your planes won't gain any org there (but they get repaired), so it makes only sense to rebase planes with good org.

If org of a plane gets too low which is based on a near zero health air base: Well, based on rough numbers for 1939 Luftwaffe, an INT with 60% morale needs around 12 days to fully recover its meagre 36% org, this is for perfect circumstances like 100% ESE and infra and sufficient air base size, add to that the time for rebase to and fro and most likely the plane will be also quite damaged... for Poland you are probably finished with your conquest before this plane can see action there again. One idea would be to just rebase it to the west for the "Westfeldzug".
In longer wars I collect/rebase all heavily damaged or low-org planes at 1 or 2 central air bases. If I don't centralise it somehow, I tend to loose the overview, it also allows me, when the planes are repaired, to group them together as a full squadron for new action. When heavily damaged, it can take a substantial time until they see action again, though.
 
Last edited:
What implementation(s) do you use for your suggested idea of reusing captured and broken enemy airfields when simulating Germany conquering Poland - and you wish to conquer the Soviet Union afterwards - as soon as possible?

Neither would I wish nor do *grin
Seriously, attacking the Sovietunion right after conquering Poland seems suicide with France a still "unsolved" 2nd front to the west... plus the UK.
Additionally Germany has also still a non-aggression-pact with the SU, cancelling it will lead to +5% dissent (exact % depends on your domestic sliders, I think).

1c) Background: When you suggested this idea, does it or does it not mean that the DH game model and calculate with Fuel in this situation? Or does DH only use Strength and Organization? Do you know?

See above.

1d) What is your Darkest Hour experience regarding this: Would the method make it possible, playing Germany, to successfully conquer the Soviet Union directly/shortly after winning over Poland? (Skipping the historical Battle of France in between of course? :) )

See above.
Regardless of when you attack the SU, using near zero health air bases will become a necessity. There is no way around it with the vast distances there and you just can't wait until the air bases have fully recovered. Building new air bases doesn't solve the problem, either, because those, too, will start with zero health. Building infrastructure is not feasible, either, it takes just too long. As I said, war vs SU is a completly different story than all wars of Germany before (although the Wehrmacht HQ didn't realize it and thus lost or rather made the mistake of starting the war).
Constantly swapping your planes between bad front air bases and somehow good ones in the back seems the only possible way how to do it.

2) In conclusion, final question on airbases. I am well familiar with ordering items in parallel in the production queue. However, to able to use your advice, I don't grasp "in a long serial run"!

Do you mean like at least 4 air bases in parallel - then the same order after a time interval, one set only of 4 air bases in parallel in the queue, or something else? Please exemplify.

Well, perhaps I phrased it a bit weird, to see what I mean 6 parallel air base builds in long serial runs:
dh-parallel-serial-airbase-builds.jpg


Air bases are cheap, for the price of 1 interceptor you can build about 18 air bases. So don't be shy about littering the landscape with beautiful air bases.

Here a price list, Germany April 1940 (might change for your game and settings):
1972 IC: 1 interceptor X
107 IC: 1 air base
126 IC: 1 static AA
256 IC: 1 radar
216 IC: building up infra from 90% to 100% in 216 days

235 IC: building up infra from 50% to 60% in 235 days (below 60% your land units get additional mali in combat)
Building up your infra from 50% to 100% costs roughly 1128 IC and takes 3-4 years. It is time consuming. But considering that the investment of 1128 IC doubles the reorganisation of all your stationed planes there of which a single interceptor already costs 1972 IC... it is a bargain.
 
Last edited:
Hello Altruist,
Thank you for the latest posts. I value it.

I want to convey that I am reading a lot these this days concerning WW2. Both from own research on e.g. Wikipedia - as well as your brilliant articles above.

A compliment: Dear Sir, are you a mind reader?! :D I was planning to ask you, more on your book tip above and if you endorse the book by David Glantz. How would you grade this book?

And another question, as you stated previously there are plenty of warfare articles on Wikipedia. Do you believe from your reading of this book, that it brings something extra to the table - or could its content be found during a qood research on the internet/Wikipedia? What? (I buy books too, and I found that this one is rather costly here.)

In return as a hot tip, I own and found both the book and TV series of The Band of Brothers grand.

All the best from a Scandinavia during summer! :)
 
Book: David Glantz: When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler (make sure to get the 2nd edition)
I was planning to ask you, more on your book tip above and if you endorse the book by David Glantz. How would you grade this book?
And another question, as you stated previously there are plenty of warfare articles on Wikipedia. Do you believe from your reading of this book, that it brings something extra to the table - or could its content be found during a qood research on the internet/Wikipedia? What? (I buy books too, and I found that this one is rather costly here.)

Reading scientific military history is somehow new to me, additionally English is not my native language, so it was rather work to read it completly. The content, though, has thoroughly changed my view and understanding of the "East Front". I think I am also much better able to assess other articles now and recognise the sources they are based upon (eg. biographies of German generals).

To explain this new insight let me very roughly describe the popular understanding in Germany (can't say for other countries) for many decades after the war:
# it was definetly the war vs SU which brought down the so called III. Reich, nobody doubts that
# but the understanding how the Red Army actually did this is rather obscure, perhaps even obscured, because especially the German generals and also the normal soldier
- did not really know and realize what hit them (due to Partisans, bad intel, loss of air superiority and the intense usage of deception by the Red Army)
- and according to the awful Nazi race ideology it could just not be true that German "Herrenmenschen" were defeated by mere "Slavic subhumans"
- and thus they tried to find alternative explanations
- which (and that is rather suprising) became the official history in the west.

The book by Glantz is a true alternative to this.
And it (slowly) starts to find its way into the wikipedia (English and German): In many articles about WWII battles at the East Front you can now see 2 alternative given figures for army size and losses, the old one often enough the very rough estimations of the German generals and HQ, the other based on Glantz which include official statistics of the Red Army and new analyses of Russian historians of the last 20 years. The latter is why I strongly recommend to read the 2nd enlarged and changed edition. Nevertheless I fear that the majority of the English and German wikipedia content about the East Front is stll very much from the perspective of German generals and their statements and biographies. While, to give a counter-example, nobody would get the idea to describe the landing at the Normandy from the German perspective... only.

In return as a hot tip, I own and found both the book and TV series of The Band of Brothers grand.

It was certainly entertaining to watch.
But have you ever read Norman Mailer's "The Naked and the Dead"? He pictures something very different to the splendid camaraderie which is shown to us in this "historic" movies. I fear those movies are probably better classified as patriotic propaganda movies than as "historic".
 
Last edited:
Reading scientific military history is somehow new to me, additionally English is not my native language, so it was rather work to read it completly. The content, though, has thoroughly changed my view and understanding of the "East Front". I think I am also much better able to assess other articles now and recognise the sources they are based upon (eg. biographies of German generals).

Hello Altruist and everyone,
On our talks on the Darkest Hour game and historical WW2 strategies and tactics.

Thank you for the book tip about "The Naked and the Dead." The book was new to me.

Yes, they very much present different and vital views of warfare, when you compare "Band of Brothers" and "The Naked and the Dead". Such as things often are in life. However, finding a great interest in the Screaming Eagles 101, the books and the series of BoB, there is an important difference between the soldiers in Band of Brothers and The Naked and the Dead, I state from personal experience. You like analysis: Have you discovered it? :D

We have been having a grand dialogue on Blitzkrieg, Deep Operations, as well as around air power and airfields in the Darkest Hour game. We both know a lot. What I have not come to a conclusion about yet is, reconnaissance in the game. I have not found much in the manual either; only seen it mentioned as a term almost.

Have you and how do you perform it with e.g. aircrafts?
How do you see the results of reconnaissance?
Can it be performed in different ways in the DH game? (Please note as a help, I do not mean fog of war or the spy system, which I know about of course.)

Have a pleasant week! See you. :)